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The morality and foolishness of the Christian God

docpotter

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Oh, not this continuing-is-futile business...

That is such an cop out.

I'm sorry that all three theories have the same weight, by your "gotcha"-logic.
Lol, why should I continue ? You have seemingly made your mind up right ? You even know all of the " logic" I am trying to use right ?

Cop out? No , not even a little bit. Wasted time, yes. I would be thrilled to have a back and forth discussion on the validity of Christ and the validity of the bible, but that seems like a waste of time on this thread to me, sorry
 
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Non sequitur

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You asked me a question, to establish the veracity of your claims, which I happily responded to. I didn't want to avoid anything.

I was just hoping you'd respond to mine; a simple courtesy.

No worries.
 
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No Docpotter, we haven't made up our mind. That is what essentially brought us to the position of standing without religion. I am offering you a chance to present your beliefs in the way people such as myself (and non sequitur) can only understand fact. Through evidence. If you can prove that not just God exists, but Christianity is the real teachings of this creator through undeniable evidence, I would happily begin moving myself towards your position on the existence of God.

But until you can do just that, we are not moving.
 
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docpotter

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The evidence would still rely on faith. Any religion , and belief in any God , or gods relies on some level of faith. Can I prove to you there is a God ? No , I cannot. Can anyone disprove there is a God ? No , they cannot.

The points I was trying to make earlier is simply that if Jesus was who He claimed He was, then that would make every other religion false. Agree or disagree ? and why
 
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Non sequitur

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The points I was trying to make earlier is simply that if Jesus was who He claimed He was, then that would make every other religion false. Agree or disagree ? and why

Well, I don't know everything he said or every religion, but sure.

However, one has to accept your premise as true, first, so I'm not sure what that gets you.
 
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docpotter

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Well, I don't know everything he said or every religion, but sure.

However, one has to accept your premise as true, first, so I'm not sure what that gets you.
He said He is the Christ , the Messiah foretold by the prophets 100s and 100s of years earlier. He says " I am the way , the truth , the life, NO MAN can come to the Father except through Me " .

He says there is only one God.

So , when investigating any other major world religion, you will find they either worship many gods, or deny Christ was who He claimed to be. They all cannot be right. They could all be wrong yes. But they cannot all be right.
 
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Non sequitur

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Well, assuming all that, then yes, that would be true.
 
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The faith part of religion is what I have beef with. 'Faith' is defined as "Strong belief in something with no proof or evidence". We get nowhere in ANY other aspect of life with this way of looking at the universe or indeed outwith it. It seems to me that 'faith' in the Theistic context is just the fancy way of saying "Believe what I preach not because there is proof, but because I offer what you seek" to the gullible, and "Believe what I preach not because there is proof, but because I offer you a simple answer to complex questions" to the lazy and ignorant.

Indeed if Jesus was who he says he was, God does exist and homosexuality is wrong and there was a global flood etc etc, but there is one word in that statement you need to eradicate to make me a believer. "If".
 
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docpotter

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Yeah ,I hear you , I do . Faith can be hard. But let me ask you a serious question, ok .

Have you ever loved anyone ? ever ? Your mom, dad, a friend , a relative ? I mean really loved someone? Cared about them deeply ?

Can you prove it to me ?

You could tell me about it maybe, but I could keep saying I don't believe you over and over. I could say you have some ulterior motive, etc.

Most Christians are not trying to get you to " believe their preaching " , but some might be. I can tell you I have nothing to gain by spending time here typing to you about Jesus , and the bible. All I know is what changes took place in my life when I put God first, and started reading the bible. But of course that isn't going to provable beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

Faith is always essential when love is involved , don't you agree ?
 
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Ronald

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Quoting scripture proves nothing and therefore is of no use to me.

Why can't you (or God) see, this is me asking! Through the only way I know how! I cannot rely on giving up logic to begin trying to believe (which I have did in the past, getting me here) when the only way society and I have progressed is through evidence, facts and logic.

You assume there is perfect morality, which you cannot provide real evidence for. We, throughout history, generations upon generations, have believed we had the right morals. We thought black people were meant to be slaves, we thought woman had no say anywhere other than at home, we still think homosexuality is a sin, and on the first two, we began eradicating this moral belief (and I believe we will eventually do the same with the third). Objective morality is not perfect morality. It only provides the basis of staying alive. Not because it is simply the right thing to do.

Jesus is not the origin of that quote. It was around before him.

What evidence do you consider overwhelming? The fact there were eye witnesses? Anyone can be paid to say something. Anyone can have hallucinations. Anyone can be lying to try and sway things in their favour.
An open tomb and no body suggests a stolen body as the best assumption to me. Saying the dead body came back to life and and walked out is probably the worst assumption. If there was an empty magician's coffin found today and people told me the magician came back to life, I would say it was probably a fantastic trick. Not real.

I think it is absolutely disgusting that you are saying God gave me life just to control every aspect of it. Wouldn't it be more of a chance to prove one's worth if he let us roam the world ourselves and come to our own conclusions? The only thing he would need to do is provide a basis for believing in him (which he has not done), and we would have something to aspire to.

I'm sorry but I don't think I actually have to reply to your last statement until you go and read some biology textbooks again. You do that and maybe I'll read the book of John.
 
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docpotter

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That's not at what God is doing. He could very easily control every aspect of your life, but He doesn't. You can do what ever you want. You can jump off a cliff, or you could teach a child to ride a bike, or you could make a sandwich , etc etc.

You have absolute free choice of what to believe, and how to act. One tip I could give you , maybe , is to realize that if God exists you may want to just simply ask Him from your heart to lead you to the truth.

If the bible was a made up book full of lies and nonsense , do you really think it would have been around all of this time ? What if its all true ? It is possible right ?
 
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Again, I would direct you to psychics. They been along for ages (even your bible prosecutes those who were thought of having psychic powers) We have proven time and time again there is no real evidence for psychics, and those who say they are have been exposed as masters of simple techniques to make people believe they are diving into their soul. People still say they are psychic, but they have no real evidence for it. People still believe it however, because it makes them feel good. What is the difference between this and feeling good because you think the big man in the sky cares for you?
 
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docpotter

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There is a huge difference. Where does the power come from ?

There are psychics, what the bible calls " divination ". It has an evil source, as does some magic. Witches, wicca, satanism , paganism, etc. The occult .

This , if anything further proves the bible to be accurate.
 
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Non sequitur

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MUST BE TRUE, THEN.
 
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Ronald

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Biology does not explain what creates life, where it came from, nor does it attempt to explain what the life force is that directs the growth of a fetus in the womb. It explains what happens but not necessarily how. It is beyond human ability. One cell is more complex than the space shuttle. A paramecium's flagella is as well. Multiply that by trillions of cells opperating contingiently in a process requiring information, functions and processes beyond our knowledge and abilities by what ... chance mindless mutations selected by nature. Does nature think and have a mind to guide this process. DOES THAT SOUND LOGICAL? Nature is water, sunlight, electromagnetic energy, nuclear energy, chemicals and other minerals. Do they think and choose and direct life? No -- that's not logical.
Here is a list of biologists, geneticists, investigative jouralists, all atheists who became Christians after they honestly researched the evidence that demanded a verdict: Alesksandr Sozhenitsyn, C.S. Lewis, George Price, Rick Oliver, Francis Collins and Lee Strobel to mention a few who I would say have more knowledge and logic than you or I do. Another book by Lee Strobel is "A Case for Christ". But you won't bother will you ... just argue your position. You also seem angry and so passionate about getting your anti-christ points heard. If you don't believe in God, why fret and argue about it on a Christian forum? These things shouldn't concern you, you should be happy and at peace ... but there is something going on insided ... a battle within ... anger ... resentment ...no? Something happened in your life that turned you against the idea of God and now you are attacking the concept because things turned bad, you suffered lose or they just didn't turn out the way you wanted them to?
 
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Can you prove that these 500 people were not in fact persuaded to lie, with bribes and promises? Can you prove there wasn't an orchestrated plan to hide the body in an already chosen spot that would not be found? Do not forget that the victors, the powerful and wealthy get to write what goes into the history books.

I would like to know where you read that some 300 prophecies were proven true.

I already have accepted I know nothing of significance. It is not me saying I know what lies beyond the universe, it is you.

No, biology is not an argument for or against the extistence of a creator. Nor does it attempt to be. Just because you have an argument that fits, does not make it the correct argument. Just because you can say "God did it" does not mean God actually did it. Yes, nature is complex. It took millions of years to become this complex. We have not been able to expand our knowledge across millions of years, hardly thousands if you want to push it. Who knows, maybe in the next 100,000 years we could in fact create something as complex as life itself. People before us didn't even believe we would be able to fly. Fast forward to today, and we are beginning to expand space missions to mars.
 
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My brother, you're set in your ways, which is fine. I am too. You came here for answers but you will not find anything satisfactory. I know God and Jesus are 100% real, because of my experience with answered prayers, miracles and a blessed life. None of that is proof to you, but it certainly is for me. I, nor anyone here, can post a YouTube link of God appearing and performing miracles to convince you (and even if we could, I doubt you'd believe it). If you want answers, here's what you can do. Tonight, before you go to bed, close the door, get down on your knees, and pray. Explain to God you're having trouble believing, and ask him to, when the time is right, reveal himself. Ask for a sign. Ask for his help, and his guidance. Eventually, you will get it.

If this sounds silly to you, and not something you want to try, then all the best, my friend. I'll pray in your place, but it'd mean a lot more coming from you. You have nothing to lose.

God Bless.
 
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@Ronald

And what about all the atheists who convert to islam because of the supposed accuracy of the qur'an? Why is this any different to converting to christianity because of the accuracy of the bible?

You have got to be kidding me. You just pulled the 'you're just an angry bitter person with a vendetta against Christianity' card, the 'you're an Atheist because something bad happened to you' card, and the 'why argue if your happy not believing' card IN THE SAME POST. I'm not even going to bother with this since it does you nor me any good.

If you can provide some of the 300 prophecies before the bible was made about Jesus, I would be more than happy to look at them, because I looked (albeit briefly) and couldn't find them.

@Hoops

I don't think I will. I have been lulled into believing things because of thinking I saw a sign that validated my beliefs before. When you are actively looking for signs, you begin twisting reality to suit your beliefs. This is why we have young earth creationists. The evidence may be 99% against you but if you have a belief that differs, you will look at the 1% and disregard the other 99% because you found something that suits your beliefs.
 
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