The Moral Argument (revamped)

[createdtoworship]

I believe that I’ve mentioned several times that I was a Christian for many years until I realized I had no reason to be one.

Did you repent of all known sins when you were converted. That means if you into inappropriate content, seeking help and repenting of that, also any drug or alcohol addictions must be repented of. Now struggling with an addiction has grace and mercy, but if you are proud and accepting of your sin and decide not to repent of it, but still believe in Jesus, the Bible says "even the devils believe and tremble."

It does not make you saved to simply believe Jesus exists. Satan believes that.

you must trust Him with your salvation, repent and give Him your life.

if you did not do that, you were what is called a false convert. You honored God with your lips but your hear was far from Him, the Bible says "many will come in my name, and deceive many- Matt 24:5. The Bible also says in Matthew 7:22-23
"Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

so just because you went to church, professed Christ, and even prayed does not make you saved.

 

[createdtoworship]

You can't make 'headway' when you don't even know what the topic is.

topic was won in my favor pages ago, just look if you don't believe me.

now it's basically a mock session.

 

[gaara4158]

God's holy spirit possesses me, and I know I am saved because I have love for others. Sometimes it's a tough love but it's there. Before I was christian I couldn't care less about others. When God resides in your heart, He puts up a no vacancy sign. Satan is not allowed to go there. However there is a story in the Bible of a man who had a demon and it was cast out, and He never gave His life to the Lord, so it came back in force, and brought in more demons that it had before and found his heart swept and all clean, and perfect for demonic possession. See cleaning up your life, after a situation like that won't help. I can see the temptation for someone in witchcraft to give up alcohol, or drugs after being possessed, but that won't help demons will come back to a swept house. They must allow God to reside there. By asking Him into our heart as our Lord and saviour and repenting of any known sins, and giving our life over to God, we become saved. God no longer resides in heaven, but in our heart. The Bible says "He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world."

You simply can’t know that all that you believe about God and the Devil aren’t reversed or manipulated by the Devil. To feel at all secure that this isn’t the case is to do precisely what you warned against, underestimating the Devil.

 

[createdtoworship]

You simply can’t know that all that you believe about God and the Devil aren’t reversed or manipulated by the Devil. To feel at all secure that this isn’t the case is to do precisely what you warned against, underestimating the Devil.

why would satan make a group of christians forgive their enemies, when he can manipulate them to war?

the Bible says "a kingdom divided against itself will fall."

the presence of love in the christian community is evidence that they are in the truth.

 

[gaara4158]

why would satan make a group of christians forgive their enemies, when he can manipulate them to war?

the Bible says "a kingdom divided against itself will fall."

the presence of love in the christian community is evidence that they are in the truth.

To convince them that it couldn’t possibly be the Devil. Think of it as an undercover cop being allowed to do drugs as part of his cover to bust up the drug cartels. Gain their trust, then influence them to follow a plan that leads them right into an ambush.

The Devil could be saying “Love your neighbor. See how good I am? It’s me, God! Now, cull the herd! Use these arguments for God’s existence! What’s that? It’s driving people away from Christianity? Great! God wants quality not quantity, you see. Yes, let them go to Hell. It’s a good thing!”

Didn’t you just say the Devil would delight in dragging people down to Hell with him? Seems making bad arguments as a representative of God’s word would be a very effective strategy.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

topic was won in my favor pages ago

You have no hope of 'winning' a topic when you lack a rudimentary understanding of that topic.

 

[createdtoworship]

To convince them that it couldn’t possibly be the Devil. Think of it as an undercover cop being allowed to do drugs as part of his cover to bust up the drug cartels. Gain their trust, then influence them to follow a plan that leads them right into an ambush.

The Devil could be saying “Love your neighbor. See how good I am? It’s me, God! Now, cull the herd! Use these arguments for God’s existence! What’s that? It’s driving people away from Christianity? Great! God wants quality not quantity, you see. Yes, let them go to Hell. It’s a good thing!”

Didn’t you just say the Devil would delight in dragging people down to Hell with him? Seems making bad arguments as a representative of God’s word would be a very effective strategy.

ok so your saying that on the one hand the devil is causing wars, but then on the other hand you have on the opposing side of the war, satan is also allowing them to forgive their enemies. Now this is just hypothetical. Then his whole purpose for taking life and murder would be null and void, he can't be both the perpetrator of hate, and also that of love. It's a contradiction.

 

[createdtoworship]

You have no hope of 'winning' a topic when you lack a rudimentary understanding of that topic.

sir, I haven't debated you nearly at all in this thread. So I think it's you who are unfamiliar with this topic. But if you wish, you can start your own debate with me, I challenge you sir. Any topic about the moral argument for God's existence you wish, I challenge you to debate it with me. But you won't, because you are simply running in, taking a jab, and running out. I see it all the time.

 

[gaara4158]

ok so your saying that on the one hand the devil is causing wars, but then on the other hand you have on the opposing side of the war, satan is also allowing them to forgive their enemies. Now this is just hypothetical. Then his whole purpose for taking life and murder would be null and void, he can't be both the perpetrator of hate, and also that of love. It's a contradiction.

It’s called strategy. It’s not a contradiction to be an agent of both love and hate. There are such things as double agents, you know. But that’s not what we’re talking about with Satan. He could be undercover, doing things that seemingly undermine his purpose in the short term (instructing you to love your neighbor) in order to fulfill his purpose more effectively in the long term (gain your trust, then lead you straight into Hell bringing many with you).

 

[createdtoworship]

It’s called strategy. It’s not a contradiction to be an agent of both love and hate. There are such things as double agents, you know. But that’s not what we’re talking about with Satan. He could be undercover, doing things that seemingly undermine his purpose in the short term (instructing you to love your neighbor) in order to fulfill his purpose more effectively in the long term (gain your trust, then lead you straight into Hell bringing many with you).

you would have demonic oppression instilling hate, fighting against demonic powers instilling love. There would be an internal war. I don't think that would work at all. Imagine an army of double agents, they would all be fighting each other. The strategy of having a double agent, is that not everyone is one.

 

[gaara4158]

you would have demonic oppression instilling hate, fighting against demonic powers instilling love. There would be an internal war. I don't think that would work at all. Imagine an army of double agents, they would all be fighting each other. The strategy of having a double agent, is that not everyone is one.

OR... that’s exactly what they would want you to think so you feel secure in your assumption that you’re not being deceived. And you’re buying it hook, line, and sinker.

And I already said we’re not talking about double agents, we’re talking about undercover agents. The only reason I mentioned double agents is because you falsely claimed that double agency is a contradiction, and it’s not. It’s just risky mercenarial work. And not what we’re talking about.

 

[Tinker Grey]

There should be a debate rule: If someone declares themself the winner, they lose.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

if you wish, you can start your own debate with me, I challenge you sir. Any topic about the moral argument for God's existence you wish, I challenge you to debate it with me.

There is no 'moral argument'. Morality is concerned with behavior, and since behavior is irrelevant to your system of 'morality', it's not actually 'moral' at all.

In your system, I could spend my life as a child-murdering serial rapist, have a deathbed conversion and 'repent of my sins', and go to heaven. Or I could spend it as an atheist philanthropist, volunteering for Doctors Without Borders, and go to hell.

Behavior is utterly irrelevant in such a system. The only relevant factor is what you happen to believe at the moment of death.

Which is all to say nothing of your complete lack of anything resembling a workable epistemology. Even granting Yahweh's existence, you have no means of gleaning wether he has a moral code he means for you to follow, and no means of gleaning what that code is.

If you can get past those fundamental hurdles, there might be something to 'debate'.

 

[createdtoworship]

OR... that’s exactly what they would want you to think so you feel secure in your assumption that you’re not being deceived. And you’re buying it hook, line, and sinker.

And I already said we’re not talking about double agents, we’re talking about undercover agents. The only reason I mentioned double agents is because you falsely claimed that double agency is a contradiction, and it’s not. It’s just risky mercenarial work. And not what we’re talking about.

your premise that an army can become double agents and fight itself is untested in all of military history.

I simply don't think an army with two divisive strategies, fighting eachother, would still be considered one army with one purpose. What the Bible says, rings true "a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand,"

So yours is an argument from silence, we can hypothesize all we want, but we must ultimately go where the evidence leads us, and that is not your conclusion.

 

[createdtoworship]

There is no 'moral argument'. Morality is concerned with behavior, and since behavior is irrelevant to your system of 'morality', it's not actually 'moral' at all.

In your system, I could spend my life as a child-murdering serial rapist, have a deathbed conversion and 'repent of my sins', and go to heaven. Or I could spend it as an atheist philanthropist, volunteering for Doctors Without Borders, and go to hell.

Behavior is utterly irrelevant in such a system. The only relevant factor is what you happen to believe at the moment of death.

Which is all to say nothing of your complete lack of anything resembling a workable epistemology. Even granting Yahweh's existence, you have no means of gleaning wether he has a moral code he means for you to follow, and no means of gleaning what that code is.

If you can get past those fundamental hurdles, there might be something to 'debate'.

This has nothing to do with the moral argument for God's existence, I suggest reading the first post of the thread and responding to that post, in order to stay on topic. I can address any or all of your concerns here, just not while staying on topic.

 

[createdtoworship]

There should be a debate rule: If someone declares themself the winner, they lose.

when you provide evidence for something, then there is a rebuttal that fails, and the evidence stands, then they go on for five pages insulting your intelligence, eventually you just want to get back to the topic at hand. You guys just gave up. You don't even want to try to debate honestly, at least when you lose, don't show your hand.

 

[gaara4158]

your premise that an army can become double agents and fight itself is untested in all of military history.

I simply don't think an army with two divisive strategies, fighting eachother, would still be considered one army with one purpose. What the Bible says, rings true "a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand,"

Jesus created the demons, so He would know.

You didn’t read my response at all, did you?

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

This has nothing to do with the moral argument for God's existence

It has everything to do with it. If your 'moral argument' isn't concerned with morality in the first place, then there is no need to address any of the pretty wrapping paper you've gussied it up with. It can be dismissed out of hand.

I know apologists like for these type of discussions to follow your pre-determined script - where you think you get to just assume, a propos of nothing, that your moral philosophy is vigorous, and the atheist is somehow required to play 'catch-up' with you.

Understand - I do not grant you that ground. I don't follow scripts.

 

[createdtoworship]

It has everything to do with it. If your 'moral argument' isn't concerned with morality in the first place, then there is no need to address any of the pretty wrapping paper you've gussied it up with. It can be dismissed out of hand.

I know apologists like for these type of discussions to follow your pre-determined script - where you think you get to just assume, a propos of nothing, that your moral philosophy is vigorous, and the atheist is somehow required to play 'catch-up' with you.

Understand - I do not grant you that ground. I don't follow scripts.

sir your argument is dismissed as incoherent and illogical. If you can prove that love is not moral, or forgiveness is not moral, then you may have a point. But you simply can't do that. So I really don't understand your point. That is what I mean, it appears to be a completely separate topic.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

if you can prove that love is not moral,

Love is irrelevant to your moral philosophy. I could spend my entire life in hate and go to heaven, as long as I believe in Yahweh and his salvation at the moment of death. Or I could spend my entire life in love and service to humanity and go to hell, if I'm an atheist at the moment of death.

That is the only thing that matters - what is believed at the moment of death. Nothing else is relevant.

or forgiveness is not moral

I don't think forgiveness is necessarily moral. If you forgive someone of an assault, instead of pressing charges, and that person goes on to assault someone else, you've acted immorally.

That's irrelevant though, because you don't have forgiveness in your moral system. Your idea of 'forgiveness' is Yahweh absolving you of 'sin'. You can't 'forgive' someone of a wrong that wasn't done to you. If I steal your wallet, only you can forgive me.

Vicarious redemption completely destroys the concept of personal responsibility. And it explains the countless number of people I've known who spent their lives treating everyone around them like utter garbage, only to end up with a clean conscience because they 'found Jesus', and it's only his 'forgiveness' that matters, not the forgiveness of anyone they've actually hurt.