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The Moon is shrinking........

chilehed

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Awwwwwwwwwwwwww
Jack "keep looking up" Horkheimer is dead? :cry:
Yet another memory of my childhood confronted by my older years :cry:

(yeah, that was the latest story today in that link)
WHAT? Say it ain't so! I grew up in Miami, was at the Museum of Science and Space Transit Planeterium more times than I could possibly count, and have fond memories of Jack's shows and talking with him up on the rooftop at the Southern Cross Observatory.

:sigh: Man knows not his time. Jack, may you rest in peace. :crossrc:
 
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chilehed

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So creationists are right but in the wrong direction. So planets get smaller overtime not bigger. That is why the moon is moving away from us. Everything is getting smaller :thumbsup:...
Hate to break your bubble, but that wouldn't be at all due to a change in the diameter of the moon. Shrinkage does not equal a loss of mass.
 
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Soul Searcher

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This diagram shows how scarps are formed: thrust faults. If the Moon shrinks, even a little, the surface shrinks too, and gets compressed. This causes stress under the surface, building pressure. Eventually that pressure exceeds the strength of the rock above it, and you get a fault. One side of the fault slams upward, forming the scarp.
Hmm would that not increase the diameter?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Hmm would that not increase the diameter?
Yes. Not only would it, but in fact it does!

100819141911.jpg


"Once again 'it is the fault of the reality if it does not comply with our models'. The so-called 'lobate scarps', i.e., faults that have a semi-circular or lobe-shaped appearance, are indicative of growth-expansion and not of contraction, to make it comply with the nonsensical model of the cooling interior. Even their words in the picture script indicate that, e.g., 'the fault carried near-surface crustal materials up and over the craters, burying parts of their floors and rims.' Therefore, I think wishful thinking is what they offer to us..." -- Stavros T. Tassos, seismologist, August 25, 2010
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Yes. Not only would it, but in fact it does!

100819141911.jpg


"Once again 'it is the fault of the reality if it does not comply with our models'. The so-called 'lobate scarps', i.e., faults that have a semi-circular or lobe-shaped appearance, are indicative of growth-expansion and not of contraction, to make it comply with the nonsensical model of the cooling interior. Even their words in the picture script indicate that, e.g., 'the fault carried near-surface crustal materials up and over the craters, burying parts of their floors and rims.' Therefore, I think wishful thinking is what they offer to us..." -- Stavros T. Tassos, seismologist, August 25, 2010
"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman." -Homer Simpson
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman." -Homer Simpson
Why am I not surprised a Darwinist gets their science from a television cartoon?
 
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shinbits

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I've asked this question before, but honestly, I just don't really understand it too well, so please forgive me for asking again.

By why don't a planet's moons crash into it, or why don't we crash into the sun? Since all of them have gravity, wouldn't it make sense that Jupiter's moons should've crashed into it, or that Mercury should've burned up in the sun by now?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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I've asked this question before, but honestly, I just don't really understand it too well, so please forgive me for asking again.

By why don't a planet's moons crash into it, or why don't we crash into the sun?
Excellent question for which you will find that gravitational physicists have no answer other than Almighty God's divine intervention and miracleworks.

"...lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other, he [God] hath placed those systems at immense distances from one another." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1687

Since all of them have gravity, wouldn't it make sense that Jupiter's moons should've crashed into it, or that Mercury should've burned up in the sun by now?
Excellent questions for which you will find that gravitational physicists have no answer other than Almighty God's divine intervention and miracleworks.

Gravitation is a myth.

"The example of the magnet I have hit upon is a very pretty one, and entirely suited to the subject; indeed, it is little short of being the very truth." -- Johannes Kepler, astronomer, New Astronomy, 1609

"For, by the demonstration of the Englishman William Gilbert, the earth itself is a big magnet...." -- Johannes Kepler, astronomer, New Astronomy, 1609

"It is therefore plausible, since the Earth moves the moon through its species and magnetic body, while the sun moves the planets similarly through an emitted species, that the sun is likewise a magnetic body." -- Johannes Kepler, astronomer/mathematician, New Astronomy, 1609

"But come: let us follow more closely the tracks of this similarity of the planetary reciprocation [libration] to the motion of a magnet, and that by a most beautiful geometric demonstration, so that it might appear that a magnet has such a motion as that which we perceive in the planet." -- Johannes Kepler, astronomer, New Astronomy, 1609

"The long and constant persuasion that all the forces of nature are mutually dependent, having one common origin, or rather being different manifestations of one fundamental power, has often made me think on the possibility of establishing, by experiment, a connection between gravity and electricity …no terms could exaggerate the value of the relation they would establish.'' -- Michael Faraday, physicist, 1865

"...the great truth, accidentally revealed and experimentally confirmed, is fully recognized, that this planet, with all its appalling immensity, is to electric currents virtually no more than a small metal ball...." -- Nikola Tesla, physicist, 1904

"What we call mass would seem to be nothing but an appearance, and all inertia to be of electromagnetic origin." -- Henri Poincaré, physicist, 1908

"...inertia is exclusively of electromagnetic origin...." -- Henri Poincaré, physicist, 1908

"The form of the corona and the motion of the prominences suggest that it [the sun] is a magnet." -- George E. Hale, astronomer, 1913

"Magnetism is possessed by the whole mass of the earth and universe of heavenly bodies, and is an essence of known demonstration and laws. By adopting it we have the advantage over the gravity theory by the use of the polar relation to magnetism. A magnetic north pole presented to a magnetic south pole, or a south pole to a north pole, attracts, while a north pole to another north pole or a south pole to another repels. This gives to us a better reason than gravitation can for the elliptical orbit of the planets instead of the circular. It also gives us some light on the mystery of the tides, the philosophy of which the profoundest study has not solved. Certain facts are apparent; but for the explanation of the true theory such men as Laplace and Newton, and others more recent, have labored in vain." -- C.H. Kilmer, historian, October 1915

"I hope that some reader interested in astronomical matters will take occasion to make some reply to this letter [The Myth of Gravitation] and possibly contend that electro-magnetism cannot supersede Newton's theory of gravitation in the suspension and movement of the universe of worlds." -- C.H. Kilmer, historian, October 1915

"An atom differs from the solar system by the fact that it is not gravitation that makes the electrons go round the nucleus, but electricity." -- Bertrand Russell, physicist/philosopher, 1924

"It is found that matter and electricity are very closely related in structure. ... it is self-evident that matter is connected with gravitation and it follows logically that electricity is likewise connected." -- T. Townsend Brown, physicist, Aug 1929

"The writer and his colleagues anticipated the present situation even as early as 1923, and began at that time to construct the necessary theoretical bridge between the two then separate phenomena, electricity and gravitation. The first actual demonstration of the relation was made in 1924." -- T. Townsend Brown, physicist, Aug 1929

"The earth itself is a great big magnet." -- Edward Leedskalnin, stone mason, 1945

"According to our present view every atom consists of a small heavy nucleus approximately 1O^-12 cm in diameter sur-rounded by a largely empty region 1O^-8 cm in diameter in which electrons move somewhat like planets about the sun." -- Hendy D. Smyth, physicist, 1945

"Gravitation is an electromagnetic phenomenon." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, polymath, 1946

"All planets revolve in approximately one plane. They revolve in a plane perpendicular to the lines of force of the sun’s magnetic field." -- Immanuel Velikovsky, polymath, 1946

"The picture of an atom began to look more like a miniature solar system with an atomic nucleus for the sun, and electrons for planets. The analogy with the planetary system can be further strengthened by these facts: the atomic nucleus contains 99.97 per cent of the total atomic mass as compared with 99.87 per cent of the solar system concentrated in the sun, and the distances between the planetary electrons exceed their diameters by about the same factor (several thousand times) which we find when comparing interplanetary distances with the diameters of the planets. The more important analogy lies, however, in the fact that the electric attraction-forces between the atomic nucleus and the electrons obey the same mathematical law of inverse square (that is, the forces are inversely proportionate to the square of the distance between two bodies) as the gravity forces acting between the sun and the planets. This makes the electrons describe the circular and elliptic trajectories around the nucleus, similar to those along which the planets and comets move in the solar system." -- George Gamow, physicist, 1961

"When first observed by Voyager, the spoke movements [of Saturn's Rings] seemed to defy gravity and had the scientists very perplexed. Since the spokes rotate at the same rate as Saturn's magnetic field, it is apparent that the electromagnetic forces are also at work." -- Ron Baalke, astrophysicist, 1998

"Tides are created because the Earth and the moon are attracted to each other, just like magnets are attracted to each other. " -- Keith Cooley, astronomer, 2002
 
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Soul Searcher

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I'm no expert but I would think it is due to the speed at which they orbit and the distance they are away. The combination causes them to remain at a distance from the object as the speed is trying to pull away at about the same rate as the pull is trying to draw them closer.

If they were to obit much slower then it would seem that they would be draw in and should they go much faster they would fly off into space. As it is they are in balance... for now anyway.
 
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shinbits

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I'm no expert but I would think it is due to the speed at which they orbit and the distance they are away. The combination causes them to remain at a distance from the object as the speed is trying to pull away at about the same rate as the pull is trying to draw them closer.

If they were to obit much slower then it would seem that they would be draw in and should they go much faster they would fly off into space. As it is they are in balance... for now anyway.
Okay. But what planets like Jupiter and Saturn? they have so many moons orbiting around them, wouldn't all the differing gravities disrupt that balance? Wouldn't the chaos of all the different moons in addition to Saturn's own gravity, eventually cause one of the moons to crash into Saturn? Or at least crash into another moon?

I realize this may not be a simple answer, but still, thank you for your response.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Who is to say that it has not happened already or will happen in the future. As of now the speed and gravity seem to be such as to mantain a balance this could continue for a very long time or could be disrupted in the near future.
 
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chilehed

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shinbits said:
I've asked this question before, but honestly, I just don't really understand it too well, so please forgive me for asking again.

By why don't a planet's moons crash into it, or why don't we crash into the sun?
Excellent question for which you will find that gravitational physicists have no answer other than Almighty God's divine intervention and miracleworks....
ROTFLOL!! HA ha ha hahahaha..... Oh, wow, that's rich! Reallly, please stop right now, I can't take it... :waaah:
 
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chilehed

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I've asked this question before, but honestly, I just don't really understand it too well, so please forgive me for asking again.

By why don't a planet's moons crash into it, or why don't we crash into the sun? Since all of them have gravity, wouldn't it make sense that Jupiter's moons should've crashed into it, or that Mercury should've burned up in the sun by now?
It works in a manner similar to a funnel with a ball rolling around inside; if you start the ball off at the proper speed in the proper direction it will orbit the throat of the funnel.

Eventually it will slow down because energy losses such as air resistance and friction are very large compared with the mass of the ball, but in the case of planets the mass is so large in comparison that their orbits can last for billions of years.

I could explain the math if you like, but I'm gonna be offline for about a week.
 
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AV1611VET

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By why don't a planet's moons crash into it, or why don't we crash into the sun?
Because of the Law of Conservation.

Angular momentum = mass x velocity x radius (of the orbit).

As a planet approaches the sun, its radius decreases, but its velocity* increases to compensate; as a planet revolves away from the sun, its radius increases, but its velocity* decreases to compensate.

* Its mass stays the same.
 
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sfs

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One way of looking at it: the moon isfalling toward the earth. It's got so much horizontal speed that's its trajectory carries it all the way around the planet as it falls, and so it just keeps going in circles. Here's a well-known illustration of the idea, showing what happens if you shoot a cannonball sideways at increasing speeds.

Note that this can happen at a range of velocities, with higher speed moons orbiting at larger distances.

It works in a manner similar to a funnel with a ball rolling around inside; if you start the ball off at the proper speed in the proper direction it will orbit the throat of the funnel.

Eventually it will slow down because energy losses such as air resistance and friction are very large compared with the mass of the ball, but in the case of planets the mass is so large in comparison that their orbits can last for billions of years.

Except that in the case of the Earth's moon, friction is actually increasing the moon's speed (and orbital radius). This is because tidal friction is transferring momentum from the Earth's rotation to the moon's orbital velocity; it will keep doing so as long as the moon's orbital angular velocity is greater than the Earth's rotational angular velocity.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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ROTFLOL!! HA ha ha hahahaha..... Oh, wow, that's rich! Reallly, please stop right now, I can't take it... :waaah:
I agree gravitation is laughable.

"...lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other, he [God] hath placed those systems at immense distances from one another." -- Isaac Newton, mathematician, 1687

"...to establish it [gravitation] as original or primitive in certain parts of matter is to resort either to miracle or an imaginary occult quality." -- Gottfreid W. Leibniz, polymath, July 1710
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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One way of looking at it: the moon isfalling toward the earth.
In reality, the moon is falling away from the Earth as the rate of 3.8 centimeters per year.
 
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sfs

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In reality, the moon is falling away from the Earth as the rate of 3.8 centimeters per year.
Gee, I could have sworn I just wrote, "friction is actually increasing the moon's speed (and orbital radius)".
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Gee, I could have sworn I just wrote, "friction is actually increasing the moon's speed (and orbital radius)".
What friction?

The friction from the moon falling away from the Earth?

But I thought space is a perfect vacuum because Newton and Einstein said so prior to the Space Age.

:scratch:
 
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sfs

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What friction?

The friction from the moon falling away from the Earth?

But I thought space is a perfect vacuum because Newton and Einstein said so prior to the Space Age.
The vacuum of space has nothing to do with it. The friction is (mostly) between the Earth and the water in the tidal bulge raised by the Moon. Because the Earth rotates faster than the Moon orbits, and because there is friction between the Earth and the water, the Earth pulls the bulge ahead of the Earth-Moon line. The off-axis gravitational force between the bulge and the Moon transfers angular momentum from the Earth to the Moon, slowing the Earth and boosting the Moon into a higher orbit. This tidal acceleration is why bodies orbiting one another eventually end up tidally locked, with matching orbital and rotational periods.



(Note: my original statement was wrong in one respect: as the Moon's orbital radius increases, the orbital velocity decreases, not increases.)
 
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