The Missing Passover

[Ben007]

The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That's when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: "For that Sabbath day was a high day."

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day. That's what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn't. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but
NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported "Last Supper" did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

 

[rcorlew]

Or could it be that He could celebrate the Passover whenever He chose, after all He is the Passover!

 

[ebia]

Jesus had a habit of doing things "no Jew would do", so that argument is, um, problematic.

 

[Yarddog]

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Hello Ben,

Why do you think that he died in the year 30 AD? Also, I'd be interested to know how we can determine exactly which year the Jews actually celebrated the Passover on a Sabbath, in ancient times. In present time we understand the timing so much better but there are accounts of problems in the determination of the 1st day of Nisan in ancient times.

Most people believe that the Synoptic Gospels teach that Jesus ate the Passover meal on the 14th, a Thursday. John appears to say that he didn't eat the meal being that he was the paschal lamb.

 

[wayseer]

The Missing Passover ...
The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

You make various good points but miss the essential one. Jesus was concerned with confronting the self-righteous hypocrisy of the Jewish establishment.

There are, as others above have indicated, several historical factors you have not considered either because you are assuming Jesus died in the year 30 CE. Such may not necessarily be the case.

 

[Standing Up]

The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

Why?

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That's when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: "For that Sabbath day was a high day."

Were the other festivals mentioned in John on the weekly sabbath?

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover. The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day. That's what we call the Seder Meal.

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday. No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn't. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

Or you aren't aware of the facts.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but
NEVER before. It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported "Last Supper" did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

Tell us about the two passovers ("festival in two days") of the diaspora.

 

[Steve Petersen]

John seems to disagree with the synoptics regarding Jesus last supper.

 

[Ben007]

Or could it be that He could celebrate the Passover whenever He chose, after all He is the Passover!

----------------------

No chance Rcorlew, Jesus was a loyal Jew, whose Faith was Judaism. We are too serious about our Jewish laws. This of being himself the Passover, you and everyone knows, that's Pauline rhetoric, fabricated about 30 years after Jesus had been gone.
Ben

 

[Ben007]

Jesus had a habit of doing things "no Jew would do", so that argument is, um, problematic.

--------------------

Who says so, the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels? It makes no sense. Read Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus himself declared that he came to confirm the Jewish laws down to the letter and to warn all of us to do just the same. For him to be as you state above, he would be himself a contradiction. Let alone be breaking the Law, making a sinner out of himself.
Ben

 

[Ben007]

Hello Ben,

Why do you think that he died in the year 30 AD? Also, I'd be interested to know how we can determine exactly which year the Jews actually celebrated the Passover on a Sabbath, in ancient times. In present time we understand the timing so much better but there are accounts of problems in the determination of the 1st day of Nisan in ancient times.

Most people believe that the Synoptic Gospels teach that Jesus ate the Passover meal on the 14th, a Thursday. John appears to say that he didn't eat the meal being that he was the paschal lamb.

----------------

Hi Yarddog, according to Josephus, Herod, the Great, died in the year 4 BCE. According to Matthew 2:19-23, soon after Herod died, Joseph was told in a dream to get his family and return to Israel because Herod had died. That was 4 BCE. That was the same year Jesus had been born. In the year 30, Jesus was 33 years old. That year, the 14th of Nisan, fell on the regular Sabbath, which would make of it, according to John 19:31, a High Sabbath or Solemn Feast day. Besides, according to Matthew 27:62, that day, following the Day of Preparation, was the Sabbath because according to Judaism, the Day of Preparation is Friday, the sixth day of the week.

It does not matter if in ancient times or today, the Passover is celebrated on the very same day it falls. If on a regular Sabbath, it becomes solemn and even makes of that Sabbath a High Sabbath. I find strange your telling me of accounts of problems in the determination of the 14th of Nisan. I have never heard of such a thing. In Israel they would communicate it through the trumpet. In the Diaspora, they would celebrate it on a double (two days) in order to coincide with the same day the Israeli Jews would be celebrating.

The synoptic gospel writers were not Jewish; Jesus was. Jesus would not break the Law to celebrate the Passover before the 14th of Nisan. And the 14th of Nisan fell on the Sabbath. It means, the Seder Meal was celebrated Friday night and not Thursday night. And it is against Torah for a man to be the Paschal Lamb for another. (Deut. 24:16; II King 14:6; Jer.
31:30; Eze. 18:4)
Ben

 

[Ben007]

You make various good points but miss the essential one. Jesus was concerned with confronting the self-righteous hypocrisy of the Jewish establishment.

There are, as others above have indicated, several historical factors you have not considered either because you are assuming Jesus died in the year 30 CE. Such may not necessarily be the case.

----------------

Sorry Wayseer, but I don't think that to be concerned about hypocrisy in the Jewish establishment has anything to do with the Missing Passover.
Ben

 

[Ben007]

Why?

Because he was on the cross and soon afterwards in the tomb.

Were the other festivals mentioned in John on the weekly sabbath?

I don't think so. But that Passover was. At least, he knew that it was this that made of that Sabbath a High Sabbath.

Or you aren't aware of the facts.

All you have to do to be aware of this fact, is to read the gospels without preconceived notions.

Tell us about the two passovers ("festival in two days") of the diaspora.

One of the purposes is to be ceremonially in harmony with the Jewish population in Israel by coinciding the celebration with the day it is done in Israel. The point is to have the whole of the Jewish world in tune for the celebration of Passover.
Ben

 

[Steve Petersen]

----------------

The synoptic gospel writers were not Jewish; Jesus was. Jesus would not break the Law to celebrate the Passover before the 14th of Nisan. And the 14th of Nisan fell on the Sabbath. It means, the Seder Meal was celebrated Friday night and not Thursday night. And it is against Torah for a man to be the Paschal Lamb for another. (Deut. 24:16; II King 14:6; Jer.
31:30; Eze. 18:4)
Ben

Matthew was not Jewish?

 

[Standing Up]

Because he was on the cross and soon afterwards in the tomb.

You're going with John's timeline without realizing what you're saying below.

I don't think so. But that Passover was. At least, he knew that it was this that made of that Sabbath a High Sabbath.

Don't think so? Then your conclusion is unsubstantiated. The fact is that the coincidence of one feast sabbath on a weekly sabbath has nothing to do with whether it is called a high sabbath or not. That's the point. If the other one in John does not coincide, but is called a high sabbath means the two are unrelated.

All you have to do to be aware of this fact, is to read the gospels without preconceived notions.



One of the purposes is to be ceremonially in harmony with the Jewish population in Israel by coinciding the celebration with the day it is done in Israel. The point is to have the whole of the Jewish world in tune for the celebration of Passover.
Ben

Two passovers dating from the diaspora. Can you expand on your thought a bit? What days? Why? It existed from the Assyrian deporation through the time of Christ and continues as a custom today, right?

 

[ebia]

--------------------

Who says so, the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels? It makes no sense. Read Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus himself declared that he came to confirm the Jewish laws down to the letter and to warn all of us to do just the same. For him to be as you state above, he would be himself a contradiction. Let alone be breaking the Law, making a sinner out of himself.
Ben

Historians like N.T. Wright have shown how Jesus' actions would it into 1st century Israel. I suggest reading Jesus and the Victory of God. The consensus amongst most historians studying Jesus is that he did make quite extraordinary claims through his words and actions - even if there is some dispute about exactly what. The idea that the gospel writers were ill informed gentiles making things up doesn't fly - the gospels have long since shown to be far to Jewish in character for that (even Luke). If you want to see what you get when greeks make up gospels go look at the gnostic ones.

But if we are to reduce our knowledge of what Jesus did to what you think plausible there is really no basis on which to have a conversation. If we can't start from Paul or the canonical gospels, on what basis are we going to have a sensible discussion when a fundamental claim of Christianity is that Jesus forced a radical reinterpretation of what the story was all about and where it was going?

 

[wayseer]

----------------

Sorry Wayseer, but I don't think that to be concerned about hypocrisy in the Jewish establishment has anything to do with the Missing Passover.
Ben

No need to apologize - but thank you.

Jesus was actively engaged in confronting the self-righteous Judaism of his day - there is more than ample evidence for such action. I am suggesting that his 'last supper' may well fall into yet another demonstration of that self-righteousness with which he was surrounded. Maybe Jesus celebrated the Passover when there was no need to celebrate the Passover to demonstrate the hypocrisy of those who maintain that certain things must only happen in certain ways - that one need not be obligated to certain days of certain months to honour God.

 

[Hentenza]

Thread moved to UT from CA.

 

[zeke37]

The Missing Passover

We are starting Passover here in Israel. But since the wheels of the Truth cannot stop rolling, I want to bring to your attention the Passover of the year 30 CE. It was supposed to be the last one that Jesus would partake of, and he missed it.

correct...He did not eat the Passover...
He ate with them on the preparation day, the night before Passover...

According to John 19:31, that Sabbath was a solemn Sabbath, which is what we call in Hebrew a Shabbaton. That's when a festival falls on the Sabbath. The KJV brings: "For that Sabbath day was a high day."

the High Day was the Passover....it fell on a Wed, at sunset
Christ was killed on Wed afternoon, the 14th...
The Passover began on the 14th/15th's sunset

That Sabbath was the 14th of the month of Nissan; the first day of Passover.

no...the first day was the 15th...the preparation for the Passover was the 14th. There are many proofs for this

The beginning of it is celebrated with the Passover Supper at the evening of the previous day. That's what we call the Seder Meal.

the Judaic customs that I am familiar with agree that the Passover begins on Nissan 15, not 14

In the year 30 CE, the Passover Supper was held on the evening of that Friday.

actually, no it was not...
the Passover meal was held on our Wed evening, the 15th of Nissan

No wonder, everyone somehow connected with the events taking place on the Calvary that day, had to leave it in a hurry to prepare themselves and their houses for the Passover Supper.

possibly

Jesus missed that Passover Supper because he was on the cross, and soon afterwards, in the tomb. But then again, how to understand that he celebrated his Passover Supper on the evening of Thursday, which was the 13th of Nissan? He didn't. In Israel, no Jew would celebrate Passover in a different day alone or in a small group when everyone else would be doing it next day.

correct...
Jesus did not eat the Passover lamb,
because He is the Passover lamb...(but He died on the preparation day....right before Passover began...that was a Wed that year, as He was in the Tomb until the Weekly Sabbath was over....3 days and 3 nights...

Saturday sunset would make it 3 days and 3 nights...and is also when the Sabbath ended and the 1st day of the week began.

This discrepancy is perhaps due to the fact that the gospel writer, writing somehwere in the world, and realizing that the Jews in the Diaspora would celebrate every festival in two days, thought he could have Jesus celebrate the Passover Supper on the 13 of Nissan. It would have worked if Jesus was a Diaspora Jew; but in Israel there is no such a thing.

exactly..no diaspora in Judah...
which absolutely shreds what Standing up is trying to prove.

There is an option in Judaism to celebrate the Passover later, even a month later, if the person was not for some reason ready for it; but
NEVER before.

correct

It means that, definitely, Jesus missed that Passover celebration, because his reported "Last Supper" did not have anything to do with the Passover Supper.

exactly...He did not die on the Passover...
He died on the preparation day, AS the Passover

The gospel writer had either no idea what he was writing about or simply thought we would never find out about his blunder.

Ben

who? I guarantee you that the "gospel writer" KNEW what he was talking about...
obviously some folks have a problem with comprehension, and tradition
and cannot follow the subject through to the end.

all the Gospels completely agree with each other, 100%.

man's tradition of friday and 2 passovers etc, is simply incorrect.
Do not doubt the Gospels.

Tell us about the two passovers ("festival in two days") of the diaspora.

doesn't apply since Christ was in Jerusalem then,
and not outside Israel.

the diaspora custom did not apply in Israel....
and as said by another poster,
the diaspora Jews would be keeping the extra day, to make sure to coincide with Jerusalem,
not the other way around. Jerusalem (hence Christ) would be keeping one, not two.

 

[zeke37]

----------------

Hi Yarddog, according to Josephus, Herod, the Great, died in the year 4 BCE. According to Matthew 2:19-23, soon after Herod died, Joseph was told in a dream to get his family and return to Israel because Herod had died. That was 4 BCE. That was the same year Jesus had been born. In the year 30, Jesus was 33 years old. That year, the 14th of Nisan, fell on the regular Sabbath, which would make of it, according to John 19:31, a High Sabbath or Solemn Feast day. Besides, according to Matthew 27:62, that day, following the Day of Preparation, was the Sabbath because according to Judaism, the Day of Preparation is Friday, the sixth day of the week.

Hello,

the biblical explaination is that the Passover was the 15th, not the 14th...
Christ died on the 14th...Wed, before sunset...same as the Passover lambs did

the Passover is always a High Sabbath, a Holy Day, no matter what day of the week it falls on...

and this has led to much confusion.

we know that He is seen risen Saturday evening(after the 7th day Sabbath)....
which was 3 days and 3 nights after His burial

so Wed the 14th is His crucifixion date
and Wed evening at sunset, the 15th, is the Passover

It does not matter if in ancient times or today, the Passover is celebrated on the very same day it falls.
If on a regular Sabbath, it becomes solemn and even makes of that Sabbath a High Sabbath.

not so...the Passover was always a High Holy Sabbath, biblically that is.

I find strange your telling me of accounts of problems in the determination of the 14th of Nisan. I have never heard of such a thing. In Israel they would communicate it through the trumpet. In the Diaspora, they would celebrate it on a double (two days) in order to coincide with the same day the Israeli Jews would be celebrating.

since we are not speaking of an event outside Judah,
the customs of the diaspora Jews does not matter.
Christ was in Judah.

The synoptic gospel writers were not Jewish; Jesus was. Jesus would not break the Law to celebrate the Passover before the 14th of Nisan. And the 14th of Nisan fell on the Sabbath.

try looking up when (what year) the Passover fell on a Wed evening 14th/15th sunset back then....that would mark the year of Christ's death

unless you know of a Sabbath calander that I can look at online.

It means, the Seder Meal was celebrated Friday night and not Thursday night. And it is against Torah for a man to be the Paschal Lamb for another. (Deut. 24:16; II King 14:6; Jer.
31:30; Eze. 18:4)
Ben

It would have been celebrated Wed night, the 15th...
Christ died on the 14th, the preparation day...when they killed the lambs...

why?
we know that they keep the lambs until the 14th...
and we know what time of day that they kill the lambs at
originally at even...but traditionally, in Christ's day, in the afternoon

so, since they keep them until the 14th,
and kill them on the 14th's afternnon,
it follows that the 14th is NOT the Sabbath or Passover day,
because they are working/preparing/killing etc on His crucifixion day.

They hastened to bring Him off of the cross to bury Him before the High Sabbath (Passover/Unleavened bread) began...

 

[zeke37]

No need to apologize - but thank you.

Jesus was actively engaged in confronting the self-righteous Judaism of his day - there is more than ample evidence for such action. I am suggesting that his 'last supper' may well fall into yet another demonstration of that self-righteousness with which he was surrounded. Maybe Jesus celebrated the Passover when there was no need to celebrate the Passover to demonstrate the hypocrisy of those who maintain that certain things must only happen in certain ways - that one need not be obligated to certain days of certain months to honour God.

Jesus promised us that He did not eat that passover, would not...even if He desired to....

some interpret the scriptures to say that the desire was to celebrate the FULFILLED Passover with them...not their current one

but again, He knew He would not and HE even declares that very thing, in the next line of scripture


1Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
2And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
3Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
4And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.
5And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.
6And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.

7Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

so for arguments sake, we'll say it is sunset...
6pm ish
and the "day" of unleavened bread, is actually the preparation day for the Feast of unleavened bread which is called the Passover....the day before...

that prep day has just begun...

8And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
11And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
12And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
13And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

they had to do this the day before, not the day of...it was the Law.


14And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

the hour of His death...that time of betrayal....an expression....

15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

so this says that Christ would not eat the Passover,
even if the desire is there....

remember that they just worked and prepared and traveled etc...
so it is not a Sabbath or Passover yet.
they are eating the day before's meal here, and no lamb...wine, bread and more wine...but no lamb


17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.