The Miracle of the Holy Fire

Searching_for_Christ · Apr 13, 2010

Pff, Athena wasn't known for doing these "miracles" at a set time of every year. However something as physical as this "holy" fire, to be fake..yet celebrated year after year..for you to be right that its 100% most likely normal fire..then you must also conclude everyone that has gone there and come back with positive reviews are idiots and don't know their "colds" from their "hots" nuff said.

Philothei · Apr 13, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
hmm...I guess they kinda got to figure out why thousands of people would come to that same spot every year to participate in something so fake? I mean..a lot of the people there have probably going there their whole lives! (especially the natives) if it was so clear that the fire was indeed "normal" fire that burns...I really don't think anyone would give a flying hoot..nor do I think centuries of patriarchs would continue on with a lie like that.....its just to easy to prove something like that false..so easy that if this thing where indeed false the idea that its still being celebrated by so many for so long is just..well..them locals must be total idiots right? what a bunch of loons? but I guess you can be the judge of it.

thanks for recognizing the truth in that miracle... None has bee able to figure it out or we would for sure know it. My own father who is a skeptic recognizes the miracles he has seen in Greece .... Why would someone who has total nerve damage verified by doctors would walk? Why would a blind see? These are stories that are 'evidenced". Yet for these who are blinded to the reality of a miracles they would still deny them ...

BTW who is pulling their limbs out of the fire? If I try to do what they are doing at home I would get burned... for sure. I tried to see how much I can tolerate the flame on my hand and it was much less than a minute... I cannot imagine holding a flame close to my hair for a split second. I have burned hair during Easter services before of other people and it just takes a truly second to do so...
There are all kind of people attending the service of the Resurrection every year. Some are Pilgrims from all over the world and some are Arab Christians. This miracle has been hapening for thousands of years.

MolecularGenetics · Apr 14, 2010

Philothei said:
I am glad you can also testify to the 80% of the space out there that you "do not see"

Scientists are the ones who declare that they 'cannot see" the 100 of the universe but a tiny spec that is down to 20% at most....so I would conclude that is it pure arrogancy to say that too... What we see we testify.

We are talking about observable/testable phenomena here on earth, and you are shifting the focus distance limitations on our ability to observe galaxies. That isn't even remotely relevant.

Although, I am curious; in what context was the term 'cannot see' used? Where is the sources for that quote?

Philothei said:
All miracles are "overturning" the "physics" or as St. Gregory fo Nyssa said is that God works through nature, yet he "anults" or "suspends" the laws for He is God. The Birth of Christ is a "supernatural" event yet it took place within nature in a unique way that God knows and not men.

I asked for research, but you are giving me conjecture. I have no interest in something so untestable and unverifiable.

Philothei said:
Sure we discover how physics and the Cosmos works everyday as we unravel new things... But that does not mean that the laws of nature cannot be either "spead up" in case of healing... or suspended in a case like the Holy Fire.

Nor does it mean they can. I'll say this again:

MolecularGenetics said:
...do you have any publications on research as to the starting and ending martial of the reaction [including the materials passing though the flames], that shows inconsistency with the laws of physics, Philothei?

Philothei said:
It is unfair to call me either 'arrogant" (not you but some here) who have no proof of the opposite but their say...just the same.

You misunderstand how the scientific method works; if you make a hypothesis, but cannot test it for verification, then one has no reason to accept it, and every reason to maintain a lack of acceptance until it is verified by testing.

To accept this untested conclusion about the fire, despite the lack of research, is either an act of arrogance (an overinflated sense of knowledge of the phenomenon and of the universe's nature) or an act of gullibility (acceptance in the absence of verification).

Philothei said:
Why would scientinsts who can only "see" the 20% of the whole universe reject God is truly and pitiful illogical.

Philothei said:
You do not even answer me about the universe... Scientists know almost 80% of it...all..Why would I trust to tell me about miracles if they do not know the "most" of what lurks in the universe? it does not make sense....But y'all go right ahead beleiving what you can see

Beleiving the 20%..... pity

Despite that you are presenting these vague, ill-defined statistics with no source or context, I see what you are insinuating.

And it illustrates my point quite nicely; since we don't know everything about how the universe behaves and what is going on in given phenomena, we are not justified in believing that the only plausible explanation for a perceived descrepencey between the two is an interaction with a force not of this universe (a supernatural force).

Philothei · Apr 14, 2010

And it illustrates my point quite nicely; since we don't know everything about how the universe behaves and what is going on in given phenomena, we are not justified in believing that the only plausible explanation for a perceived descrepencey between the two is an interaction with a force not of this universe (a supernatural force).

You would have that 'discrepancy" as you are the one doubing the "energy"given to the universe through God and thus "discredit" its power to either 'speed" up or "suspend" the laws of nature... not me...

The fact we do not know the 80% is a good indication that we do not know "nature" nature is part of the Cosmos is it not? We are ruled by cosmic forces some we do not even know.... How come our microcosm on earth is all reality? it is not ...
The miracle is there it is for you to decide how to explain it. I did

MolecularGenetics · Apr 14, 2010

Philothei said:
You would have that 'discrepancy" as you are the one doubing the "energy"given to the universe through God and thus "discredit" its power to either 'speed" up or "suspend" the laws of nature... not me...

I'm having trouble deciphering this statement. Did you mean:

You are the one claiming that there is a "discrepancy" (as you dubbed the "energy" given to the universe through God) in order to "discredit" God's power to either "speed" up or "suspend" the laws of nature... not me.

If that is what you meant, then no; you have both misrepresented and misunderstood what I have said.

Again, if there is an interaction in this universe with a supernatural force, since the universe behaves consistently, that interaction will necessarily manifest itself as a discrepancy between consistency and observation.

Why did you assume I was using the term 'discrepancy' in the pejorative?

Philothei said:
The fact we do not know the 80% is a good indication that we do not know "nature" nature is part of the Cosmos is it not? We are ruled by cosmic forces some we do not even know.... How come our microcosm on earth is all reality? it is not ...
The miracle is there it is for you to decide how to explain it. I did

I must admit; your continual lack of understanding what I am saying is getting a bit frustrating. You have quoted my response to your claim, and then done little more than just repeating the claim.

I will try to simplify it further:

You agree with premise 1: We do not know everything about how the universe behaves.

Since you continue refusing to present any research on the phenomenon, you must surly also accept premise 2: We do not know most of what is taking place as part of the phenomenon.

So for all we know, the consistent nature of the universe could or could not precisely explain the phenomenon. Thus we are not justified in assuming that it must be the result of interaction with a supernatural force, over the idea that it's perfectly natural.

I am not sure if I can manage to simplify this any further, so please read it carefully, and try to understand.

Nostromo · Apr 14, 2010

This seems to fall under the category of "I can't explain it, therefore I can explain it (by saying God did it)".

Wiccan_Child · Apr 14, 2010

Philothei said:
thanks for recognizing the truth in that miracle... None has bee able to figure it out or we would for sure know it. My own father who is a skeptic recognizes the miracles he has seen in Greece .... Why would someone who has total nerve damage verified by doctors would walk? Why would a blind see? These are stories that are 'evidenced". Yet for these who are blinded to the reality of a miracles they would still deny them ...

Evidenced? Where, exactly? Where is the medical literature documenting these events? And even if God is willing to heal the odd person, why wouldn't he heal everyone? For an omnipotent being he sure is choosy about how he reveals himself.

Philothei · Apr 14, 2010

MolecularGenetics said:
We are talking about observable/testable phenomena here on earth, and you are shifting the focus distance limitations on our ability to observe galaxies. That isn't even remotely relevant.

Although, I am curious; in what context was the term 'cannot see' used? Where is the sources for that quote?

Click to expand...

It is as to prove the source of a miracle...since we do not know your speculation of a "second" explanation is as good as mine...Simple you deny it and Ido not I have every right to do so...as much as you. You cannot "disprove" it either.

I asked for research, but you are giving me conjecture. I have no interest in something so untestable and unverifiable.

Click to expand...

I am giving you a problem and some eyewitness that go back 2,000 years you are still giving me speculation.

You misunderstand how the scientific method works; if you make a hypothesis, but cannot test it for verification, then one has no reason to accept it, and every reason to maintain a lack of acceptance until it is verified by testing.

Click to expand...

What about something that is beyond our own understanding? Have you ever thought that there might be a "master mind" creating all this A miracle is but a 'sign" that points to something...

To accept this untested conclusion about the fire, despite the lack of research, is either an act of arrogance (an overinflated sense of knowledge of the phenomenon and of the universe's nature) or an act of gullibility (acceptance in the absence of verification).

Click to expand...

It is an act of arrogance to claim a miracle something the science has not be able to explain? I call it 'explanation" you can call it whatever it does not change the fact you cannot explain it How can people upon thousands of generations be "gullable" ???

Despite that you are presenting these vague, ill-defined statistics with no source or context, I see what you are insinuating.

And it illustrates my point quite nicely; since we don't know everything about how the universe behaves and what is going on in given phenomena, we are not justified in believing that the only plausible explanation for a perceived descrepencey between the two is an interaction with a force not of this universe (a supernatural force)

Click to expand...

.

If you are not justified in any of your beliefs that does not mean that you can prove it.. And this one no one has for 2,000 years

Philothei · Apr 14, 2010

Wiccan_Child said:
Evidenced? Where, exactly? Where is the medical literature documenting these events? And even if God is willing to heal the odd person, why wouldn't he heal everyone? For an omnipotent being he sure is choosy about how he reveals himself.

becausse miracles like this one are 'guideposts" of his grace. They are pointers to our faith. Miracles like this one do "prove" some who are "in disbelief" that there is someone out there who is in control in this life. If God healed everyone then we would not be human and created being but sock puppets of a puppet-ier.

Split Rock · Apr 14, 2010

Philothei said:
This is getting honestly repetitive... Did you see the people putting the fire on their hairy arms? I saw that I cannot believe you did not. Did you see the bearded gentlemen putting the fire on their beards? My friend did this to himself no trick involved.He is an honest man. I believe my eyes and the testimony of honest men. You chose not to. It is unfair to call me either 'arrogant" (not you but some here) who have no proof of the opposite but their say...just the same. At least I know from what I see and what others who I trusts have witnessed you all do not. Why would I believe you?

If this is getting repetitive it is not my fault. You started this thread, I assume to show evidence of this yearly miracle. You have failed to show anything unusual at all. If the fire is cool why are they quickly passing their hands over it? Caves are cold. I know, I have been inside them. Is it at all surprising that people with cold hands do not feel any heat from passing them over a small fire? Is it any surprising that the flames feel warmer after a while, when the holiness is supposed to "wear off?" Seriously, I just don't see a miracle here. If you do, I suspect it is becasue you want to see a miracle.

Philothei said:
You do not even answer me about the universe... Scientists know almost 80% of it...all..Why would I trust to tell me about miracles if they do not know the "most" of what lurks in the universe? it does not make sense....But y'all go right ahead beleiving what you can see

Beleiving the 20%..... pity

What is wrong with believing what you can see and feel? I asked you before, do you not believe that most reports of miracles are not really miracles?

pgp_protector · Apr 14, 2010

Philothei if you are so convinced that this fire is Holy fire would you be willing to go their, and Hold (not wave) you hand over it for the full time that it is "Holy" ?
If you receive no burns That would be an awesome testimony.

Split Rock · Apr 14, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
Pff, Athena wasn't known for doing these "miracles" at a set time of every year. However something as physical as this "holy" fire, to be fake..yet celebrated year after year..for you to be right that its 100% most likely normal fire..then you must also conclude everyone that has gone there and come back with positive reviews are idiots and don't know their "colds" from their "hots" nuff said.

The Greek gods certainly were known for miracles, just like every other god man ever invented. The Oracle at Delphi in greece was consulted for centuries. She was consulted before any major undertaking by kings and statesmen. Wars were even dependent on what she said. The god Apollo spoke through the priestess ("The Pythia). Was this not a miracle? Where the Greeks idiots? Yes or No?

I never claimed that the people who attended these services were fakes or were liars. They are like you and Philothei... they see what they want to see. The fire is real fire, but there is nothing holy about it. The fact that it is repeated every year in a big ceremony mearly reinforces the believe that they are participating in a miracle.

Searching_for_Christ · Apr 14, 2010

Split Rock said:
The Greek gods certainly were known for miracles, just like every other god man ever invented. The Oracle at Delphi in greece was consulted for centuries. She was consulted before any major undertaking by kings and statesmen. Wars were even dependent on what she said. The god Apollo spoke through the priestess ("The Pythia). Was this not a miracle? Where the Greeks idiots? Yes or No?

I never claimed that the people who attended these services were fakes or were liars. They are like you and Philothei... they see what they want to see. The fire is real fire, but there is nothing holy about it. The fact that it is repeated every year in a big ceremony mearly reinforces the believe that they are participating in a miracle.

The oracle at Delphi was a product of some chick essentially getting high off from fumes that came from underground, they had no idea about that. They had to take in faith what she was saying was "spiritual" and true. However something like "Holy Fire" which is very physical, and can be tested by the most average of person is different. The claim is that the fire does not burn, correct? You got thousands of people that go to this ceremony every year, and they all attest to it's power to not burn. I again ask how so many people would participate in something like this if it wasn't any differen't from fire? the second they feel warmth from that thing they would be able to know "this is normal fire" YET there is something about the fire that doesn't scream "normal fire" to them. Sure there may be a little bit of mob mentality that doesn't change anything tho. Look at it this way, its likely no one has actually scientifically studied it (otherwise you could just pull up a source right now where a man analyzed it scientifically and proved them wrong) you have to realize that the witness of ALL those people that attend this "miracle" year after year is NOT something to be ignored.

Good day

Wiccan_Child · Apr 14, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
The oracle at Delphi was a product of some chick essentially getting high off from fumes that came from underground, they had no idea about that. They had to take in faith what she was saying was "spiritual" and true. However something like "Holy Fire" which is very physical, and can be tested by the most average of person is different. The claim is that the fire does not burn, correct? You got thousands of people that go to this ceremony every year, and they all attest to it's power to not burn. I again ask how so many people would participate in something like this if it wasn't any differen't from fire?

In the same way that thousands of people are fooled by any number of alleged supernatural events: humans are easy to deceive, especially if they want to believe.

Searching_for_Christ said:
the second they feel warmth from that thing they would be able to know "this is normal fire" YET there is something about the fire that doesn't scream "normal fire" to them.

Allegedly. Any and all footage of the event shows that they don't, in fact, hold their hand in the flames for any subtantial length of time. Moreover, there are a number of mundane things that can help withstand burning (namely, anything that makes your skin cold and damp).

Searching_for_Christ said:
Sure there may be a little bit of mob mentality that doesn't change anything tho.

Of course it does: the only evidence we have to look at is eye-witness accounts, and they are most definitely altered by things like mob mentality.

Searching_for_Christ said:
Look at it this way, its likely no one has actually scientifically studied it (otherwise you could just pull up a source right now where a man analyzed it scientifically and proved them wrong) you have to realize that the witness of ALL those people that attend this "miracle" year after year is NOT something to be ignored.

Of course it can. Eye witness testimony is not sufficient to prove anything; even in a court of law, it's only useful when it can be corroborated. I've looked at a dozen videos of the Holy Fire, and none of them show people holding their skin in the flame for any substantial length of time. The layman might see this and think "Look, it really isn't burning them!", but anyone who's played around with ordinary fire knows that this can be done with, well, ordinary fire. That's why you get so many testifying to this event: they're fooled by the sensationalism.

Searching_for_Christ · Apr 14, 2010

There isn't much footage of the fire in the first place, hardly enough to get a accurate idea of what is really going on. Most the people that are shown in that video are so giddy that they are hardly doing anything with the fire in the first place, rather just dancing around and being amazed that they even have it.

In regards to the witness of others, well its all you have to work with, there isn't anything about it in the scientific community (for or against the fire) in regards to the sensationalism, it would then be correct for me to assume that you think this sensationalism has been producing a nearly 2,000 year old lie?

Split Rock · Apr 14, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
The oracle at Delphi was a product of some chick essentially getting high off from fumes that came from underground, they had no idea about that. They had to take in faith what she was saying was "spiritual" and true. However something like "Holy Fire" which is very physical, and can be tested by the most average of person is different. The claim is that the fire does not burn, correct? You got thousands of people that go to this ceremony every year, and they all attest to it's power to not burn. I again ask how so many people would participate in something like this if it wasn't any differen't from fire? the second they feel warmth from that thing they would be able to know "this is normal fire" YET there is something about the fire that doesn't scream "normal fire" to them. Sure there may be a little bit of mob mentality that doesn't change anything tho. Look at it this way, its likely no one has actually scientifically studied it (otherwise you could just pull up a source right now where a man analyzed it scientifically and proved them wrong) you have to realize that the witness of ALL those people that attend this "miracle" year after year is NOT something to be ignored.

Good day

If I attended this ceremony and lit a candle with an ordinary butane lighter back in a corner where no one saw me, and then passed it to one of the others there, do you really think it would be any different? They would pass the flame over their damp, cold hand and think it was holy fire, just like the rest of the candles.

Is this event something to be ignored? Well, it certainly does show the power of faith. A miracle? No more than the candle lit by my hypothetical butane lighter.

Super_Rational · Apr 14, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
There isn't much footage of the fire in the first place, hardly enough to get a accurate idea of what is really going on.

Our point exactly.

In regards to the witness of others, well its all you have to work with, there isn't anything about it in the scientific community (for or against the fire)

Wouldn't you think that if this were, in fact, a miracle (and reproducible, at that), that they would attract the attention of someone somewhere in the scientific community? Wouldn't someone have done a reasonable analysis? Why do you think it's been ignored by the overwhelming majority of people in the world?

in regards to the sensationalism, it would then be correct for me to assume that you think this sensationalism has been producing a nearly 2,000 year old lie?

Look, let me break this down for you. Many religions have their practices & "miracles" that members from other religions think are crazy, fake, etc. Many believe in weeping virgin mary statues or jesus appearing on random objects. Are they lying (intentionally deceiving)? Most probably are not. Do they believe in something against all reasonable/obvious explanations because they want to believe it? You bet. Delusions are real, miracle fire is not.

Wiccan_Child · Apr 14, 2010

Searching_for_Christ said:
There isn't much footage of the fire in the first place, hardly enough to get a accurate idea of what is really going on.

Precisely.

Searching_for_Christ said:
Most the people that are shown in that video are so giddy that they are hardly doing anything with the fire in the first place, rather just dancing around and being amazed that they even have it.

Precisely. Sensationalism: they're overwhelmed just to be near it. By the time they put their hand in the flame, do you really think they're going to be taking meticulous notes on how long it takes to be burnt? The good thing about the videos is that we can see how long they're really in the fire for; I think it's a safe bet that these people are overestimating just how long they're hand is in the fire.

Searching_for_Christ said:
In regards to the witness of others, well its all you have to work with, there isn't anything about it in the scientific community (for or against the fire)

Which is why I don't believe it is anything other than an exercise in self-delusion.

Searching_for_Christ said:
in regards to the sensationalism, it would then be correct for me to assume that you think this sensationalism has been producing a nearly 2,000 year old lie?

Among other things, yes.

Exiledoomsayer · Apr 14, 2010

I cannot believe this thread is still active..
Alright. a few things then..
1. When is the next holy candle gathering?
2. Where is it?
3. Are you allowed to go there as a heretic?
4. would the flame be cold if you where a non believer?
5. Would you stop believing if I went there and videotapped my hand charring black from these holy flames by actually holding it in the flame for five minutes?
6. If 5 is yes. would you also accept if i burned a piece of straw instead? I need that hand for..erm..recreational purposes.

pgp_protector · Apr 14, 2010

Exiledoomsayer said:
I cannot believe this thread is still active..
Alright. a few things then..
1. When is the next holy candle gathering?
2. Where is it?
3. Are you allowed to go there as a heretic?
4. would the flame be cold if you where a non believer?
5. Would you stop believing if I went there and videotapped my hand charring black from these holy flames by actually holding it in the flame for five minutes?
6. If 5 is yes. would you also accept if i burned a piece of straw instead? I need that hand for..erm..recreational purposes.

This is why I like my idea better

pgp_protector said:
Philothei if you are so convinced that this fire is Holy fire would you be willing to go their, and Hold (not wave) you hand over it for the full time that it is "Holy" ?
If you receive no burns That would be an awesome testimony.

Then you don't have to worry about "you didn't have faith", "you're not a believer", and you're hand won't be the one getting burnt.

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