its a statement ... that whom so ever shall believe on him shall not perish but have everlasting life, no believe and then get married in the mormon temple, have several wives, be baptised for the dead...
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Is this a question or a statement?
It is consistent and obvious that when I am right on target and you cannot deny what I am saying, you proceed to distract the subject with accusations of our beliefs, which pieces of the puzzle you do not understand, and try to fit them into the big picture of a belief system where they do not fit.its a statement ... that whom so ever shall believe on him shall not perish but have everlasting life, no believe and then get married in the mormon temple, have several wives, be baptised for the dead...
May we first get a clear and common agreement on my statement? Then my response will make more sense!
In light of Hebrews 5:9, does salvation come to those who do not obey Christ?
" 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
Why would you ask this when I already gave you a sound reason for delaying (not refusing) my answer? I am anxious to answer your question. I want to present the answer in the best way. Your answer to clarify, as I requested, will help me to do so.Is there a reason you won't answer my question? ...Originally Posted by MormonFriend
May we first get a clear and common agreement on my statement? Then my response will make more sense!
In light of Hebrews 5:9, does salvation come to those who do not obey Christ?
" 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
It is consistent and obvious that when I am right on target and you cannot deny what I am saying, you proceed to distract the subject with accusations of our beliefs, which pieces of the puzzle you do not understand, and try to fit them into the big picture of a belief system where they do not fit.
Let's keep it basic about obedience to the things Jesus taught in the Bible. Do you really believe in Jesus when you do not honor your parents, do not forgive others who trespass against you, do not do any of the things that were commanded from the mouth of the Savior? Would you call that true belief when verbally you say I believe in Him, but in actions you do not follow Him?
To me, when I am disobedient, it tells me that my faith/belief and love for Jesus is not at the level of where it should and can be. It tells me there is still pride and rebellion in my heart. It means that the divine process of refinement is not complete. It means that I still hold fast to my will, and that must not be if I am to return to the Father. It means that I am not only indebted to Him for His sacrifice for my sins, but also for His long suffering and mercy for not giving up on me....Originally Posted by MormonFriend
It is consistent and obvious that when I am right on target and you cannot deny what I am saying, you proceed to distract the subject with accusations of our beliefs, which pieces of the puzzle you do not understand, and try to fit them into the big picture of a belief system where they do not fit.
Let's keep it basic about obedience to the things Jesus taught in the Bible. Do you really believe in Jesus when you do not honor your parents, do not forgive others who trespass against you, do not do any of the things that were commanded from the mouth of the Savior? Would you call
that true belief when verbally you say I believe in Him, but in actions you do not follow Him?
of course you do, does that mean every time you sin you forget Jesus altogether, ...
The debt for our sins is fully paid for already. It is up to us to choose to receive His gift. That choice is reflective upon who/Who we choose to serve.... does that mean the sin is greater than the blood that payed for the sin, if the blood was greater than the sin how did the sin become greater.
We cannot assume salvation ever. That is determined at the Judgement seat. We must endure and prove faithful through the trials and tribulations that life has a way of blessing us with....are we immediately not saved every sin we commit??
To me, when I am disobedient, it tells me that my faith/belief and love for Jesus is not at the level of where it should and can be. It tells me there is still pride and rebellion in my heart. It means that the divine process of refinement is not complete. It means that I still hold fast to my will, and that must not be if I am to return to the Father. It means that I am not only indebted to Him for His sacrifice for my sins, but also for His long suffering and mercy for not giving up on me.
so you are saying the focus is on your love for Jesus not his love for you, if you are indebted to him then the debt is paid, can the debt become unpaid and how??
The debt for our sins is fully paid for already. It is up to us to choose to receive His gift. That choice is reflective upon who/Who we choose to serve.
how can the debt become unpaid??
We cannot assume salvation ever. That is determined at the Judgement seat. We must endure and prove faithful through the trials and tribulations that life has a way of blessing us with.
many scriptures disagree, i do not see a single example of a saved person becoming unsaved
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
john 3:16 if you believe you are saved, in romans you pass from death to life when you are saved, can you go back to dead??
How can you usurp salvation before the end? We can have assurance that we are on the straight and narrow path to salvation. Sin can deter us from that path if there is no repentance. That repentance is evidence of who/Who we choose to serve, as I mentioned above.
Could we love Jesus, if He did not love us first? (1 John 4:19MF said:Originally Posted by MormonFriend
To me, when I am disobedient, it tells me that my faith/belief and love for Jesus is not at the level of where it should and can be. It tells me there is still pride and rebellion in my heart. It means that the divine process of refinement is not complete. It means that I still hold fast to my will, and that must not be if I am to return to the Father. It means that I am not only indebted to Him for His sacrifice for my sins, but also for His long suffering and mercy for not giving up on me.
so you are saying the focus is on your love for Jesus not his love for you, ...
Who said, or even implied that the debt becomes unpaid? A fully paid for gift can be rejected by the intened recipient, and that does not change the paid status of the gift. It is simply a waste of precious resource.MormonFriend said:The debt for our sins is fully paid for already. It is up to us to choose to receive His gift. That choice is reflective upon who/Who we choose to serve.
how can the debt become unpaid??
That would be because none exist! Who is a saved person that was "saved" before enduring to the end? That statement you made is an oxymoron. One probable exception is if and when a person has their calling and election made sure, as Peter once mentioned.MormonFriend said:We cannot assume salvation ever. That is determined at the Judgement seat. We must endure and prove faithful through the trials and tribulations that life has a way of blessing us with.
many scriptures disagree, i do not see a single example of a saved person becoming unsaved
If you still sin, you never passed from death to life.MormonFriend said:Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
john 3:16 if you believe you are saved, in romans you pass from death to life when you are saved, can you go back to dead??
I think there is a warped comprehension going around of what it means to "rest". A yoke represents work! Christ's yoke is easy, because without it (in comparison) the torment is overwhelming! Doing the works that Christ gave us to do is what frees us from the overwhelming burdens that the worries and conflicts of the world place on our shoulders. We simply need to open our eyes to the current events around us all over the world, and see how the cause and effect of becoming ungodly as a people comes back to bite us in the back side with vengeance!... we cannot usurp anything but we can rest in finished work of Christ, fear not, peace I leave with you, my yoke is easy, things Jesus said, how can we not fear if every day our salvation is hanging in the balance of a single action of someone who is sinful by nature, how is the yoke easy when it is the same yoke as the law whose glory is fading.. repentance is turning from your old ways, yep, when you accept Jesus you turn your back on your none belief and start a walk with God, forever changed as your eyes have been opened..MormonFriend said:How can you usurp salvation before the end? We can have assurance that we are on the straight and narrow path to salvation. Sin can deter us from that path if there is no repentance. That repentance is evidence of who/Who we choose to serve, as I mentioned above.
Could we love Jesus, if He did not love us first? (1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.) Yes! The focus is on our love for Him. I have no idea why you would think that negates our focus on His love for us! We would be extremely ungrateful recipients of His love if we did not utilize it to its full enabling potential to love Him in return. That is the best way to focus on Jesus' love for us, by returning that love to Him, and to others. "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
I think of peter compared to John, peter said Lord i will do it, i love you i never will give you up and at the first hurdle he denied Jesus three times, though he never lost his salvation, John on the other hand simply rested on Jesus, the only thing he declared himself was the most loved disciple, our love is always conditional, changeable unreliable, that's why the love God has for us is far more important..
Who said, or even implied that the debt becomes unpaid? A fully paid for gift can be rejected by the intened recipient, and that does not change the paid status of the gift. It is simply a waste of precious resource.
if the debt is paid in full and we accept that, how can we then be lost as the debt is paid, it cannot become unpaid
That would be because none exist! Who is a saved person that was "saved" before enduring to the end? That statement you made is an oxymoron. One probable exception is if and when a person has their calling and election made sure, as Peter once mentioned.
yet john 3:16 says believe on me and you will have everlasting life, saved... romans there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, we can go wrong, we can fail,sin but it will not be held against us, as our debt is paid..
(2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: )
That is a topic that would be best served in another thread, but the bottom line is if we have to "work" to attain that calling and election. Peter made it clear that we do have to give diligence and make it happen.
why are you trying to do the work that Jesus has done, you were slaves to sin but now you are slaves to righteousness, once everything we did God saw as sin, now God sees us as righteous as we have the righteousness of Jesus upon us
But please, by all means, share the scriptures you were referring to that suggest we can be saved before we have endured to the end!
If you still sin, you never passed from death to life.
are you claiming you are without sin, because we all know what scripture says about that, do you really think you or anyone else can live a sinless life
I think there is a warped comprehension going around of what it means to "rest". A yoke represents work! Christ's yoke is easy, because without it (in comparison) the torment is overwhelming! Doing the works that Christ gave us to do is what frees us from the overwhelming burdens that the worries and conflicts of the world place on our shoulders. We simply need to open our eyes to the current events around us all over the world, and see how the cause and effect of becoming ungodly as a people comes back to bite us in the back side with vengeance!
The saddest part about this concept of "saved by grace alone" is when people think they are justified to continue in sin because it is no longer counted against them as sin, due to an imaginary umbrella that protects them from the effects of sin. If we still sin, we have not departed from evil. And that is the sad and scary part. Job declared that understanding is the result of our departure from evil. If people believe they have departed from evil, but still do evil, they are deceived, and that would explain why they don't understand!
And why did Peter not loose his salvation? You don't think that Peter when through a hellish pain and anguish to repent of his sins? Are you implying that Peter did not do the works that Jesus gave him to do, and by those works he became refined to a save-able nature? Didn't Judas believe in Jesus? Don't the devils believe?MF said:Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Could we love Jesus, if He did not love us first? (1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.) Yes! The focus is on our love for Him. I have no idea why you would think that negates our focus on His love for us! We would be extremely ungrateful recipients of His love if we did not utilize it to its full enabling potential to love Him in return. That is the best way to focus on Jesus' love for us, by returning that love to Him, and to others. "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
I think of peter compared to John, peter said Lord i will do it, i love you i never will give you up and at the first hurdle he denied Jesus three times, though he never lost his salvation, ...
I couldn't help but notice that you left this one blank! Why is that?many scriptures disagree, i do not see a single example of a saved person becoming unsaved.... .....MormonFriend said:But please, by all means, share the scriptures you were referring to that suggest we can be saved before we have endured to the end!
Please tell me how I gave any impression or indication that I believe people who believe in Grace alone go out and sin "deliberately"! Remember that we believe our works do not have salvific properties, but they are (obedience) required by Jesus, just as the Bible says. And that does not negate the free nature of the gift..... Do you actually believe everyone who accepts the truth of saved by Grace, just as the bible says then goes out and deliberately sins..lol, ...
I couldn't help but notice that you left this one blank! Why is that?
And why did Peter not loose his salvation? You don't think that Peter when through a hellish pain and anguish to repent of his sins? Are you implying that Peter did not do the works that Jesus gave him to do, and by those works he became refined to a save-able nature? Didn't Judas believe in Jesus? Don't the devils believe?
(James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.) James flat out told us the difference in the beliefs when he proclaimed " shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
Faith/belief without works does not eradicate our sinful nature and we are continually servants of sin. Jesus said: "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." If we are the servants of sin, we have not departed from evil. If we have not departed from evil, we cannot understand the things of God. (Job 28:28) Therefore, if we believe in "Grace alone", the devil has us captured in ignorance. That is why Kimball said, per your OP, "Salvation by grace alone was originated by Satan (p.206) "
Please tell me how I gave any impression or indication that I believe people who believe in Grace alone go out and sin "deliberately"! Remember that we believe our works do not have salvific properties, but they are (obedience) required by Jesus, just as the Bible says. And that does not negate the free nature of the gift.
What I believe is that they (people who believe in Grace alone) do not understand that God prepared a way for them to escape any temptation. When that "prepared way"is discovered and applied, they will discover the Grace that frees them from sin. That does not make them "sinless" The sins committed, while searching for the "prepared way", means they are stained with sin. You must stop sinning to be cleansed from the stains, because the sins create new stains.
I hope this analogy works. .... If I was a master computer whiz, and you brought me your computer that was not performing anymore, because the websites you visit are full of viruses, I would tell you yes, I can cleanse out your hard drive of all those viruses, and I will do it for free. But you must promise me to never go to web sites anymore that are out of my boundaries of approved web sites. ..... Why would I make that stipulation?
Then why did Jesus require obedience for salvation? Did you read my analogy? It is a rough draft and I can improve it, if it is not clear enough to answer this post.that's why lds stance is contradictory, you say works has no salvific properties yet you say if you do not do certain things you are not or cannot be saved, those two statements cannot be reconciled, either works affect salvation or they do not...Originally Posted by MormonFriend
Please tell me how I gave any impression or indication that I believe people who believe in Grace alone go out and sin "deliberately"! Remember that we believe our works do not have salvific properties, but they are (obedience) required by Jesus, just as the Bible says. And that does not negate the free nature of the gift.
What I believe is that they (people who believe in Grace alone) do not understand that God prepared a way for them to escape any temptation. When that "prepared way"is discovered and applied, they will discover the Grace that frees them from sin. That does not make them "sinless" The sins committed, while searching for the "prepared way", means they are stained with sin. You must stop sinning to be cleansed from the stains, because the sins create new stains.
I hope this analogy works. .... If I was a master computer whiz, and you brought me your computer that was not performing anymore, because the websites you visit are full of viruses, I would tell you yes, I can cleanse out your hard drive of all those viruses, and I will do it for free. But you must promise me to never go to web sites anymore that are out of my boundaries of approved web sites. ..... Why would I make that stipulation?
if we must obey to either be saved or remain saved they clearly have affect, if sin has affect it must then overcome the blood that paid for the sin, so the sin must have more power than the blood, so how did the blood overcome the sin in the first place, it makes no sense...
temptation comes and everyone gives in to it at some time, we all fall short of the mark, no one except Jesus could be perfect, if you are relying on your own works to keep your salvation you are already lost..
Once again, how is the new covenant more glorious than the one that is fading away, if we still have to trust in Jesus and do good works or we are not saved , how is that any different to the old covenant??
I guess a big question is do the lds believe the blood of Jesus pays for all our sins past, present and future???
The only obedience required is to chose Jesus, to accept him.
26 Jesus answered them and said, Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal. 28 Therefore they said to Him, What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. 30 So they said to Him, What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 32 Jesus then said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world. 34 Then they said to Him, Lord, always give us this bread.
35 Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
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