The Mariana Trench

[AV1611VET]

However what you take "on faith" regarding your religion, cannot be verified, and thus your example is false.

It was already verified years ago --- by more than 500 eyewitnesses.

What more do you want?

Verification every generation?

 

[Vermithrax]

It was already verified years ago --- by more than 500 eyewitnesses.

What more do you want?

Verification every generation?

But my point is proven even more by your statement. Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable. The raw data of the most recent sounding of Challenger Deep is available for scrutiny, and furthermore, can be regenerated by going back out with the necessary equipment.

So once again, your comparison is an extremely poor one. What you are prepared to take on faith, in no way compares with the depth of Challenger Deep.

Actually, your statement is even worse because your claim is hearsay.

 

[AV1611VET]

Eyewitness testimony is extremely unreliable.

Are you kidding me?

If Joe Scientist was sent down to verify the depth of the Mariana Trench, and he fabricated the results, would he willingly die knowing that was a lie --- (if his life was threatened)?

Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

 

[Vermithrax]

Are you kidding me?

If Joe Scientist was sent down to verify the depth of the Mariana Trench, and he fabricated the results, would he willingly die knowing that was a lie --- (if his life was threatened)?

Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Well, we're not talking eyewitness testimony, really. We're talking about hearsay.

As for the canard that people will not die for a lie, well, you just validated Islam.

 

[AV1611VET]

As for the canard that people will not die for a lie, well, you just validated Islam.

No, I didn't --- they believe it to be factual.

 

[Vermithrax]

No, I didn't --- they believe it to be factual.

So, they believe it to be factual, but it's a lie? However let's try and stay on the point. My apologies for the derail.

Needless to say, those 500 people are an example of hearsay evidence, not of eyewitness testimony, and as evidence, in no way compares with the recorded and verifiable data regarding the depth of Challenger Deep.

Edited to add...

I just had a thought. Do you believe in the eyewitness testimony regarding Elvis sightings after his death? There are thousands of those. Far more than your 500.

 

[Hespera]

So what would it mean if they had 493 more witnesses? 318? 26? What is the crucial number? "over 500"?

Notice who bears witness that they are telling the truth. With that, one witness should be plenty.


THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

 

[pgp_protector]

Are you kidding me?

If Joe Scientist was sent down to verify the depth of the Mariana Trench, and he fabricated the results, would he willingly die knowing that was a lie --- (if his life was threatened)?

Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

How many died for David Koresh?

Being willing to die for something doesn't prove its validity.

 

[AV1611VET]

How many died for David Koresh?

Being willing to die for something doesn't prove its validity.

That's right.

They say dying for something you think is true is not uncommon; but they also say that not one time in history has anyone ever died for something they knew was false.

 

[Vermithrax]

Getting back to Elvis sightings, by your silence shall we conclude that you think Elvis is still alive, and faked his death in 1977?

After all, the Elvis Presley phenomenon and the Jesus phenomenon have a lot in common.

On the one hand we have a famous figure, whose impact on the world is ongoing, yet whose death could not be accepted by his followers, and on the other hand we have Elvis.

Very comparable situations.

 

[The Lady Kate]

No, I didn't --- they believe it to be factual.

Do you believe Christianity to be factual?

 

[The Lady Kate]

That's right.

They say dying for something you think is true is not uncommon; but they also say that not one time in history has anyone ever died for something they knew was false.

Right, so nobody will die for something unless they really, really believe in it... were you trying to make a point above and beyond this one?

Also... is the depth of the Mariana Trench something you'd consider worth dying for?

 

[corvus_corax]

So, they believe it to be factual, but it's a lie? However let's try and stay on the point. My apologies for the derail.

Actually it's not a derail as it, in it's own way, directly deals with the preconception of the OP (not to mention AV1611Vet's own derailment of his own thread)

So, apparently, AV (and other Christians) accept that certain people will die for a lie that they believe in?
AV1611Vet....Yes or No?

 

[TerranceL]

It was already verified years ago --- by more than 500 eyewitnesses.

What more do you want?

Verification every generation?

None of which felt the need to actually write about it.

 

[TerranceL]

Are you kidding me?

If Joe Scientist was sent down to verify the depth of the Mariana Trench, and he fabricated the results, would he willingly die knowing that was a lie --- (if his life was threatened)?

Read Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

Same argument can be used (and has) to claim that Islam is true.

 

[Freodin]

I think the point AV wants to make is that because "we guys" accept statements "on faith", his taking different statements "on faith" is justified.

In order to do so, he has to establish that both situtations - in his example the depth of the Mariana Trench and Jesus' resurrection - are comparable.

"We guys" bring arguments why they are not comparable. AV simply denies them, but does not bring arguments for his own position. He just tries to bring every situation to the same level of "faith". Measurements, medicine, miracles... all the same "faith".

But if we should accept (or deny) every possible claim "on faith"... what are we left with? We could not make any distiction between true and false any more.

So he has to introduce a method of verification of his own: "They would not die for something they knew to be wrong."

Don´t you see that this simply adds another layer of claims to the first one? Foxe´s Book of Martyrs? How about using Mallory´s "Morte de Arthur" as verification for the Grail Legend?

 

[corvus_corax]

snipped for brevity

So just more made up male bovine feces on his part?
That's what it's sounding like

 

[Vermithrax]

So just more made up male bovine feces on his part?
That's what it's sounding like

Basically, yup.

 

[[serious]]

According to Wikipedia, the Mariana Trench reaches a maximum depth of 6.78 miles.If you accept this as factual, without going there and measuring it yourself --- even if everyone on earth goes there and measures it (except you) and comes back with the same figure --- then I contend that you're taking it on faith that the Mariana Trench has a maximum depth of 6.78 miles.

Faith in the written documentation and/or eyewitness testimony and/or anecdotal testimony --- either way --- it's still faith.

And I don't care if you're a taxi driver, a chef, a ballerina, or an oceanographer looking at computer printouts and sonar graphs; if you haven't gone there yourself, then you're [correctly] accepting the written documentation.

This is as it should be --- and it's called 'walking by faith'.

Why would I bother arguing with you? According to your own argument, your argument's existence is a matter of faith. After all, I've only read it. I choose to believe that you never actually made such a claim. Prove that you are actually arguing this and maybe I'll respond.

 

[Hespera]

I wonder how a person believes something when they dont even know what the terms used to describe it mean?

Like this........."used OF god"

or better,

"walking by faith"

If nobody can explain it i will continue to figure it actually means nothing.

Real documentation doesnt depend on obscurantism.