The Mandami effect

[Larniavc]

I have been pondering putting people on ignore that routinely post AI stuff except when AI is the topic, but that would make things pretty lonely here these days.

I do that.

 

[Niels]

Interesting. I see the Mandami effect as the chickens coming home to roost. An unfortunate but logical consequence of electing Trump as president. The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer as a matter of MAGA policy isn't a good look. People already had a shaky grasp of what capitalism is, without Trump's corruption making it seem worse. We shouldn't be surprised that they elected a commie.

On a positive note, when the city inevitably falls apart, that will be their example of Democratic Socialism in action. Mandami's Dinkins-like term may lead to electing their somebody similar to Rudy Giuliani as the next mayor, who will find a way to lower crime and clean up the city.

 

[Always in His Presence]

I have been pondering putting people on ignore that routinely post AI stuff except when AI is the topic, but that would make things pretty lonely here these days.

What is the difference between AI or using Google, Wiki etc to research and post?

Besides speed and ease of use?

If the post is in error - then show the error - otherwise what is the difference?

 

[BPPLEE]

What is the difference between AI or using Google, Wiki etc to research and post?

Besides speed and ease of use?

If the post is in error - then show the error - otherwise what is the difference?

When they can't dispute the facts they malign the source

 

[GoldenBoy89]

What is the difference between AI or using Google, Wiki etc to research and post?

Besides speed and ease of use?

If the post is in error - then show the error - otherwise what is the difference?

If people here want to have a conversation with AI they’re better off just skipping the middle man and pose their questions directly to AI and not the poster they’re replying to.

 

[Desk trauma]

If people here want to have a conversation with AI they’re better off just skipping the middle man and pose their questions directly to AI and not the poster they’re replying to.

As I said in another thread, automate the forum with AI slinging slop at other AI. Then we’re free to waste our time elsewhere.

 

[Nithavela]

What is the difference between AI or using Google, Wiki etc to research and post?

Besides speed and ease of use?

If the post is in error - then show the error - otherwise what is the difference?

If people here want to have a conversation with AI they’re better off just skipping the middle man and pose their questions directly to AI and not the poster they’re replying to.

What he said.

If I want to have a discussion with AI, I can already do that. Locally, even. It is much nicer than most users on this forum.

Also, hallucinations. If I get lied to, I at least want it to happen on purpose.

This is a DEBATE forum. If one side gets to automate it's arguments and the other one doesn't, it's an unfair advantage on top of Brandolini's law.

 

[7thKeeper]

While others who used to live under a communist regime say that America is headed in that direction.

No... But they do refer to heading towards a different regime of old...

 

[iluvatar5150]

What's ironic is when someone posts in their own words, they're then challenged to prove what they said by posting a source that's not written in their own words.

I expect people to write their own posts to show that they understand what they're saying.

I expect people to be able to provide sources for their claims to show that they're not inventing things or repeating falsehoods.

IMO, pasting AI slop is no different than posting a link to an article that you haven't read. It doesn't demonstrate that you understand the subject or that you've vetted the source of its claims.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

People who believe America is becoming a communist nation often point to the expansion of government's role in social and economic affairs, associating policies typically found in social democracies or having socialist elements with the historical definition of communism.
Key reasons for this perception include:

• Association of social welfare programs with communism/socialism: Proposals for or implementation of policies like universal healthcare, tuition-free college, increased taxes on corporations and the wealthy, and robust social safety nets are often labeled as "socialist" or "communist" by critics. These are seen by some as a move toward wealth redistribution and increased government control, which they associate with communist aims for a classless society with income equality.
• Historical anti-communist sentiment: The legacy of the Cold War and the McCarthy era created a deep-seated cultural fear and a strong political opposition to anything labeled "communist". The term became a powerful pejorative label for a wide range of inconvenient movements or ideas, meaning that the label is applied broadly to policies that do not align with traditional American capitalist principles.
• Misunderstanding of terms: There is often a misunderstanding and conflation of terms like social democracy, socialism, and communism. While social democracy aims to balance market principles with social welfare programs, true communism involves state ownership of the means of production, a rejection of private property, and a one-party rule system.
• Concerns about government overreach and individual freedoms: Some people worry that a larger government role threatens individual freedoms, private property rights, and self-sufficiency, core tenets of the traditional American system.
• Political rhetoric: Political figures sometimes use the label of "communist" to criticize opponents and their policies, often as a tactic to generate fear and galvanize their base.
• Perception of shared "collectivist" values: Certain progressive ideals promoting collective well-being or social justice are sometimes viewed by opponents as a shift away from American individualism towards collectivism, which they view as antithetical to the American way of life.

People who think America is becoming a socialist country often point to expanded government spending on social programs, the influence of self-described "democratic socialists" in politics, and a growing desire for more social safety nets among certain segments of the population. The argument stems from differing definitions of "socialism" and the degree to which government should intervene in the economy.
Key reasons and arguments include:

• Expansion of Social Welfare Programs: The U.S. has a long history of social welfare programs, such as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and public education. Some people view the expansion of these existing programs, or proposals for new ones like universal healthcare ("Medicare for All") and free college tuition, as a move toward socialism, arguing that they represent excessive government control and dependency.
• Rise of "Democratic Socialists": The visibility and popularity of political figures like Senator Bernie Sanders and Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who identify as democratic socialists and advocate for significant government intervention to address income inequality and other social issues, have fueled this perception.
• Reaction to Economic Disparities: Growing concern over wealth disparities and the perceived failure of unfettered capitalism to provide a fair shot for everyone, especially among younger generations (millennials and Gen Z), has increased support for policies that widen social safety nets. This growing public appetite for social-oriented policies can be interpreted by critics as a national shift toward socialism.
• • Definition of Socialism: Part of the debate is rooted in the different understandings of the term "socialism" in the U.S. While some associate it with authoritarian communist regimes like the former Soviet Union or Cuba, others view it more in line with the social democracies of Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, etc.), which blend a market economy with a robust welfare state and public services.
  • Increased Government Regulation and Spending: Large-scale government spending and market interventions, such as those that occurred during the COVID-19 pandemic or previous financial crises, are sometimes characterized by critics as examples of "state capitalism" or socialist creep, moving the country away from a free market system.

Ultimately, the belief that the U.S. is becoming socialist often relates to concerns about maintaining the country's traditionally capitalist, individualistic foundation against an increasing desire for greater social and economic equality guaranteed by government programs. - Google

The information provided here is helpful. Thank you.

What are your thoughts on the practice of law enforcement stopping citizens on their way to work based solely on their appearance and requesting proof of legal status? Is this consistent with American principles?

 

[Always in His Presence]

If people here want to have a conversation with AI they’re better off just skipping the middle man and pose their questions directly to AI and not the poster they’re replying to.

Who is having a conversation with AI? It's being used as a research tool - not a debate partner.

What he said.

If I want to have a discussion with AI, I can already do that. Locally, even. It is much nicer than most users on this forum.

Also, hallucinations. If I get lied to, I at least want it to happen on purpose.

This is a DEBATE forum. If one side gets to automate it's arguments and the other one doesn't, it's an unfair advantage on top of Brandolini's law.

Thank you - you have provided an opportunity for me to express what I am saying.

I personally have no clue what Brandolini's law is.

I go to google -

I find out that it is also known as the (expletive purposely deleted asymmetry principle. Basically claiming - false information

If I go to AI - guess what - I get the very self same answer.

AI is no different than Google except it is easier and faster.

This is a debate forum - if something is posted here and you find it false - then debate - that is what we are supposed to do in a debate forum.

Debate the information - not how the information was found, because that has no bearing on it, if the information is accurate.

Just seems to be a rising pet peeve.

 

[Nithavela]

Who is having a conversation with AI? It's being used as a research tool - not a debate partner.

Thank you - you have provided an opportunity for me to express what I am saying.

I personally have no clue what Brandolini's law is.

I go to google -

I find out that it is also known as the (expletive purposely deleted asymmetry principle. Basically claiming - false information

If I go to AI - guess what - I get the very self same answer.

AI is no different than Google except it is easier and faster.

This is a debate forum - if something is posted here and you find it false - then debate - that is what we are supposed to do in a debate forum.

Debate the information - not how the information was found, because that has no bearing on it, if the information is accurate.

Just seems to be a rising pet peeve.

The very least I expect someone to do when using AI as a "research tool" is to read the AI text, understand it and then formulate an answer with their own words. What I don't want to read is copy and pasted AI slop. If you feel the need to cite something, cite the primary source and don't cite the AI post.

 

[BPPLEE]

The information provided here is helpful. Thank you.

What are your thoughts on the practice of law enforcement stopping citizens on their way to work based solely on their appearance and requesting proof of legal status? Is this consistent with American principles?

They can't do that and if they are doing it they're going to be sued

 

[Servus]

I expect people to write their own posts to show that they understand what they're saying.

I expect people to be able to provide sources for their claims to show that they're not inventing things or repeating falsehoods.

IMO, pasting AI slop is no different than posting a link to an article that you haven't read. It doesn't demonstrate that you understand the subject or that you've vetted the source of its claims.

Do you think we're getting paid enough for that?

 

[Servus]

No...

Yes, there are those who lived in communist countries who say the radical left is headed in that direction.

But they do refer to heading towards a different regime of old...

So they lived in communist countries and also Nazi Germany? Really?

 

[Chesterton]

Then we’re free to waste our time elsewhere.

There's literally nothing stopping you from doing that now.

 

[Desk trauma]

Can you come up with a better alternative?

Strictly enforced verification of legal status to work that holds employers responsible making using illegal labor untenable. With the economic motivation removed illegal economic migrants stop coming and leave if already present.

 

[Chesterton]

If I get lied to, I at least want it to happen on purpose.

You consistently make the most intelligent posts anywhere on the internet.

 

[Servus]

What he said.

If I want to have a discussion with AI, I can already do that. Locally, even. It is much nicer than most users on this forum.

Also, hallucinations. If I get lied to, I at least want it to happen on purpose.

This is a DEBATE forum. If one side gets to automate it's arguments and the other one doesn't, it's an unfair advantage on top of Brandolini's law.

The only source informantion being posted to an internet forum, is going to be from an internet source. Anyone complaining about that should be going to libraries and posting scans of pages from books and physical documents.

But really if people treated this sort of thing as an actual discussion, instead of a classroom, or a legal proceeding, they wouldn't be insisting on evidence and detailed info being produced in the first place.

 

[Pommer]

As I said in another thread, automate the forum with AI slinging slop at other AI. Then we’re free to waste our time elsewhere.

I remember the days when we had the argumentium youtubius threads where people would argue their side by posting YouTube videos, back-and-forth for pages at a time.