"The Making of Biblical Womanhood" book (continued discussion from the "What are you reading?" thread)

[peaceful-forest]

After posting a book that I was reading, a conversation began in the thread "What are you reading?" I felt that this topic needed its own thread instead of staying in another thread.


(This is the original post)

What are you reading?

I have not been reading recently because I am going to a ton of reading on Yom Kippur to occupy myself on that day. I hope you had a blessed holiday.

www.christianforums.com

(These are response posts that came up in the thread)

 

[peaceful-forest]

So what are some examples of beliefs before and now for you? What has changed?

I thought only men could have leadership positions in church. When you read the original Greek, it doesn't indicate that men only should lead.

For example, 1 Timothy 3:1-2 (KJV)
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

The original Greek uses the word "τις" (anyone) not "ἀνήρ" (man). The part that says "the husband of one wife", the Greek doesn't say that. It looks strange, but it translates to "to be one woman/wife man/husband" (εἶναι εἷς γυνή ἀνήρ)

I am aware that other translations do say "anyone" for verse 1 instead of "man".


Here is the Greek with English:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti3.pdf

And the Concordance I used to translate:

STRONGS NUMBER G1511

STRONGS NUMBER G1511

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

STRONGS NUMBER G1520

STRONGS NUMBER G1520

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

STRONGS NUMBER G1135

STRONGS NUMBER G1135

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

STRONGS NUMBER G435

STRONGS NUMBER G435

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

Another example is the part where Paul tells women to be silent in the churches:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV)
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

Paul actually did not command women to be silent in the church. If you look at the verses before this one, individuals in this church (both men and women) had the gift of speaking prophecy or speaking in tongue. If you look at the verses after the "command" for women, it's strange (v 36): "Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?"

The book I was reading argued that Paul was calling out the Corinthians for obeying Roman law that restricted women. Why would God give women the gift to prophecy and to speak in tongue at church, but Paul was ordering them to be silent? Isn't that a contradiction?

 

[peaceful-forest]

My thoughts is egalitarian's end goal is woman so equal to men they ‘become men’. But complementarian's end goal is men dominating women. Neither are Biblical & according to God’s design. Both can sound good on paper but the people practicing them have these objectives in mind. We want Biblical. Not historical. Not traditional. Not what's new

Can you elaborate more on egalitarians wanting women to become men?

My understanding of egalitarianism is that both men and women are created equal and there are no gender restrictions concerning service to God.

 

[DragonFox91]

Good idea creating new thread. I agree this conversation shouldn't derail the other thread.

Can you elaborate more on egalitarians wanting women to become men?

My understanding of egalitarianism is that both men and women are created equal and there are no gender restrictions concerning service to God.

Not all egalitarians, but it can lead to it. 'We don't like how men are doing it so let's kick the men out & do it ourselves.' It's extreme feminism.

I thought only men could have leadership positions in church. When you read the original Greek, it doesn't indicate that men only should lead.

For example, 1 Timothy 3:1-2 (KJV)
"This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

The original Greek uses the word "τις" (anyone) not "ἀνήρ" (man). The part that says "the husband of one wife", the Greek doesn't say that. It looks strange, but it translates to "to be one woman/wife man/husband" (εἶναι εἷς γυνή ἀνήρ)

I am aware that other translations do say "anyone" for verse 1 instead of "man".


Here is the Greek with English:

https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti3.pdf

And the Concordance I used to translate:

STRONGS NUMBER G1511

STRONGS NUMBER G1511

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

STRONGS NUMBER G1520

STRONGS NUMBER G1520

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

STRONGS NUMBER G1135

STRONGS NUMBER G1135

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

STRONGS NUMBER G435

STRONGS NUMBER G435

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

I'm confused how you're translating that "the husband of one wife." What would it say rewritten? "A bishop must then be blameless, to be one woman/wife man/husband"? Is it a gender-neutral word, maybe? Like "be blameless, the spouse of one spouse?" kind of?

Another example is the part where Paul tells women to be silent in the churches:
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV)
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

Paul actually did not command women to be silent in the church. If you look at the verses before this one, individuals in this church (both men and women) had the gift of speaking prophecy or speaking in tongue. If you look at the verses after the "command" for women, it's strange (v 36): "Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?"

The book I was reading argued that Paul was calling out the Corinthians for obeying Roman law that restricted women. Why would God give women the gift to prophecy and to speak in tongue at church, but Paul was ordering them to be silent? Isn't that a contradiction?

It was taught to me that that verse is discussing women shouldn't be rowdy & cause a scene in the church. Since many (pagan) women were becoming Christians, Paul is telling them church order still needs to be followed. Church isn't a party!
I agree women have lot of good things to say & Bible teaches that!

 

[timewerx]

If any of Apostle Paul's teachings sounded like women cannot be leaders, keep in mind that Paul is very quite likely speaking under the cultural context of the period or the locale - 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

 

[High Fidelity]

Women can serve as Deacons, that's it.

Anything more than that is a matter of pride and outright rebellion against God.

It's not sexist, it's not oppressive, it's just the order established by God and reinforced throughout Scripture.

Make no mistake, most of those pushing back against Scripture and centuries of Church tradition are usually those standing to gain from the confusion they create.

 

[peaceful-forest]

Not all egalitarians, but it can lead to it. 'We don't like how men are doing it so let's kick the men out & do it ourselves.' It's extreme feminism.

I haven't heard this specific example of people being opposed to egalitarianism, but feminism is often brought up.

I'm confused how you're translating that "the husband of one wife." What would it say rewritten? "A bishop must then be blameless, to be one woman/wife man/husband"? Is it a gender-neutral word, maybe? Like "be blameless, the spouse of one spouse?" kind of?

New Revised Standard Version:
"The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once,"

 

[peaceful-forest]

If any of Apostle Paul's teachings sounded like women cannot be leaders, keep in mind that Paul is very quite likely speaking under the cultural context of the period or the locale - 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.

Can you explain how this particular Bible passage relates to the argument? The passage you posted is about Paul using certain knowledge to witness to others about Jesus.

 

[peaceful-forest]

Women can serve as Deacons, that's it.

Anything more than that is a matter of pride and outright rebellion against God.

It's not sexist, it's not oppressive, it's just the order established by God and reinforced throughout Scripture.

Make no mistake, most of those pushing back against Scripture and centuries of Church tradition are usually those standing to gain from the confusion they create.

I would like to hear your argument about God only ordaining men to be church leaders, using Bible verses.

How is a woman rebelling if she is a leader in a church?

 

[High Fidelity]

How is a woman rebelling if she is a leader in a church?

Because it's contrary to Scripture.

I would like to hear your argument about God only ordaining men to be church leaders, using Bible verses.

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

If a woman cannot exercise authority over a man in Church, how can she be the Pastor?

Verses 13-14 further expand on this and add weight to it by reminding us of the order in which God made man and woman, which is a theme throughout Scripture clearly demonstrating the role of male 'headship'.

It's not about better or worse, privelege or anything else, it's simply the roles God created for us.

We need to remember who the author of confusion is, and what better way to deceive someone long-term than to convince them using a worldly vehicle that their transgression against God, their unrighteousness before God, is actually righteousness. It is not.

 

[timewerx]

Can you explain how this particular Bible passage relates to the argument? The passage you posted is about Paul using certain knowledge to witness to others about Jesus.

The Biblical teachings relevant to the topic of this thread are mostly from Apostle Paul's teachings (or from his disciples).

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 sets the context of Paul's teachings in ALL his teachings as well as the teachings of his disciples.

So yes, I think it's incredibly essential to the topic.

What makes a false teaching false is that it contradicts facts, reality, the truth.

If someone believes women are incapable leaders yet facts, reality, and the truth shows the contrary, then they believe in a false teaching.

 

[High Fidelity]

The Biblical teachings relevant to the topic of this thread are mostly from Apostle Paul's teachings (or from his disciples).

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 sets the context of Paul's teachings in ALL his teachings as well as the teachings of his disciples.

So yes, I think it's incredibly essential to the topic.

What makes a false teaching false is that it contradicts facts, reality, the truth.

If someone believes women are incapable leaders yet facts, reality, and the truth shows the contrary, then they believe in a false teaching.

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Fact, reality, truth.

Do you know better than Scripture?

 

[timewerx]

1 Timothy 2:12 - But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Fact, reality, truth.

Do you know better than Scripture?

The oppression of women, their rights and intellectual development during the Roman Empire would make women less capable of intellectual thoughts and the ability to lead or teach other people.

Stating the very obvious.

That was their reality during the Roman Empire. It was probably a good idea not to allow women to teach nor lead other people during that period.

And who knows, in some cultures, their women are probably quite rowdy and this gets us back to 1 Corinthians 9:19-23.