The majority of fundamentalists NOT committed to a young earth?

[Vance]

But see Godsaves, I think you are falling victim to the fallacy of the slippery slope. You think that if someone does not accept all the details of Scripture as historic literal truth, this will very likely lead to a disbelief in the essential doctrines of the Faith. This is not a sound point at all. Indeed, by adhering to the slippery slope mentality, you really are questioning the ultimate strength of a fellow Christian's faith.

You are, in the end, assigning strong Christian faith only to those who accept a literal reading of Scripture, are you not? Basically, are you not saying that 97% of the Protestant, Anglican and Catholic ministers and clergy in England (who don't believe in a six literal day creation) are not as strong in faith as the typical American Fundamentalist?

You say you don't base a fellow Christian's salvation on their belief about origins, but on their testimony. But can you judge anyone's salvation at all?

I believe that everyone I have met on this forum is a Christian heading to Heaven. Don't you think the same thing?

 

[Vance]

Put it this way, I have met LOTS of TEs who deny the essentials of the faith. BUT I have never met a YEC who denies the essentials of the faith

Name one TE on this forum who has denied the essentials of the Faith.

But Vance keeps throwing up a strawman saying YECs make it a salvation issue. This isn't true and we all know it. Just because I believe that "if i can't trust the first few chapters of the Bible, how then can i trust the gospels?" THat does not mean that a TE cannot be saved anyone who will:
Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
WILL BE SAVED even they are ignorant (or willfully ignorant) about the creation account

and yet you will also make a statement like this:

I think it is more a "if the creation account isn't true, then how can I be sure the resurrection is true?" kinda deal. In which case none of us are saved anyway, not even YECs.

This, to my mind, is making it a salvation issue.

And even making the statement you quote above about believing the first few chapters of Genesis is ultimately equating non-literal reading with doubt about the Gospels. And a disbelief in the truths contained in the Gospels is, indeed, a salvation issue.

The bottom line is that YECs DO, indeed, insinuate (and occasionally come right out and say) that a belief in evolution is a weaker faith, a compromising nature, a lack of trust in God. All of these do bring into play the ultimate validity of a person's Christianity (in addition to being insulting and amazingly hubristic).

 

[mhess13]

Name one TE on this forum who has denied the essentials of the Faith.

I could name at least 3 off the top of my head and i base it on other posts I have read, websites they support, statements they have made concerning salvation etc.
I was once reprimanded and lectured by a fellow TE on this forum because i said that atheists were going to hell. He read me the riot act! Imagine that, according to this TE an atheist can go to heaven! Hello????????????????

I cannot name any names. You are trying to set me up for moderator action. I have enough warnings so I ain't takin the bait
I could give you names via pm or email if you'd like to discuss this further

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

This is a Christians Only forum. Anyone denying the essentials of the faith can't post here. You are perfectly entitled to point out people who do not qualify to post here doing so.

But I suspect you have a different definition of "essentials of the faith". Where in the Nicene creed does it say "all atheists are going to hell?" Is that belief an "essential of the faith?"

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Put it this way, I have met LOTS of TEs who deny the essentials of the faith. BUT I have never met a YEC who denies the essentials of the faith

that poses an interesting question--what are the essentials of the faith?

does it extend to things like:
dispensational vs covenantal?
baptism either mode or whom?
i have good friends who strongly preach that an arminian can not be saved, not that it is a deficient theology but that it is another Gospel.

even within the fundamentalist community there is lots of divergent opinion on the fundamentals. they seem united only on what they oppose.


.....

 

[Vance]

Yes, even without naming names, I would like to see what statements have been made that would be considered denials of essentials of the faith.

Basically, though, the point is that there are YEC's who sincerely believe that some of those who believe they are Christians and going to Heaven are NOT really Christians going to Heaven.

That explains a lot.

 

[mhess13]

Yes, even without naming names, I would like to see what statements have been made that would be considered denials of essentials of the faith.

Basically, though, the point is that there are YEC's who sincerely believe that some of those who believe they are Christians and going to Heaven are NOT really Christians going to Heaven.

That explains a lot.

Ok here's one statement and I'm loosely quoting and I wont name names.
A certain TE said that the way he sees it "God basically has a big problem. Most people aren't good enough to go to heaven, yet not bad enough to go to hell."

Hellooooooooooooooooooooo, Vance you claim to be Bible-believing and I believe you are Assemblies of God , right? SO will you at least agree that this person does not understand the plan of salvation? Can we agree that this statement flies in the face of everything the Bible teaches?

Vance, can't you agree that the guy who said atheists can go to heaven doesn't understand the plan of salvation?

C'mon Vance, time to step up. Actually, you ought to be PMing me for names so that you can reach them with the gospel...

 

[boughtwithaprice]

MOD HAT ON:


This is the origins theology forum, not the "who is saved?" forum. Please keep the issues discussing the origin of life on earth and stop questioning one another's salvation

 

[Vance]

Well, I would have to see the quote in context, it sounds like an off-hand generalization about people's true worthiness short of grace rather than an actual statement of doctrine. But I would definitely agree that if someone believed that specifically accepting the redemptive gift provided by God was not part of God's salvation plan, this would be contrary to an essential tenet of Christian faith.

 

[Andy D]

This is Origins Theology but you can see the tangent here. It is definately one of the most important things that we share the Gospel with those who frequent this site who are not saved because Hell is not a place you would want even your worst enemy to go right? I have definately seen statements by some who even deny there being an Almighty God and are athiests who are happy to admit they are not Christian. We cannot judge one's salvation but it is sometimes easy to tell if someone isnt a Christian if they dont even agree with the Salvation plan right? Otherwise might as well be hindu and just believe that there are many ways to heaven and anyone can go there if good enough. BY GRACE WE ARE SAVED AND NOT BY WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Back to origins theology....all the fundamentalists I know and have talked about this issue with believe in YEC...but I definately think there will be some who believe in TE. It doesnt mean it is right though just because a majority of people believe in anything. God is our standard, not man.

 

[gluadys]

Well, I would have to see the quote in context, it sounds like an off-hand generalization about people's true worthiness short of grace rather than an actual statement of doctrine. But I would definitely agree that if someone believed that specifically accepting the redemptive gift provided by God was not part of God's salvation plan, this would be contrary to an essential tenet of Christian faith.

That's the majority viewpoint to be sure. But I have heard an interpretation which says that it is not specific acceptance which is required for salvation, but specific rejection which is required for exclusion from salvation.

I don't know if I can dig out the book that was in so I could set out the argument more fully, but I found it intriguing. It has a certain affinity to Calvinism (though as I recall the author was Catholic) and it certainly supplies a ratonal answer to questions about people who have never heard the gospel.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Quoth Mhess:

Ok here's one statement and I'm loosely quoting and I wont name names.
A certain TE said that the way he sees it "God basically has a big problem. Most people aren't good enough to go to heaven, yet not bad enough to go to hell."

Hellooooooooooooooooooooo, Vance you claim to be Bible-believing and I believe you are Assemblies of God , right? SO will you at least agree that this person does not understand the plan of salvation? Can we agree that this statement flies in the face of everything the Bible teaches?

I am the poster who said that and I stand by it.

 

[bluejeans]

This is Origins Theology but you can see the tangent here. It is definately one of the most important things that we share the Gospel with those who frequent this site who are not saved because Hell is not a place you would want even your worst enemy to go right? I have definately seen statements by some who even deny there being an Almighty God and are athiests who are happy to admit they are not Christian. We cannot judge one's salvation but it is sometimes easy to tell if someone isnt a Christian if they dont even agree with the Salvation plan right? Otherwise might as well be hindu and just believe that there are many ways to heaven and anyone can go there if good enough. BY GRACE WE ARE SAVED AND NOT BY WORKS LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.

Back to origins theology....all the fundamentalists I know and have talked about this issue with believe in YEC...but I definately think there will be some who believe in TE. It doesnt mean it is right though just because a majority of people believe in anything. God is our standard, not man.

Andy,there are already people doing that now. They are saying
that there are many ways to God. Thats what inter-faithism is doing
and it's spreading pretty fast now. Look it up on the internet. It's all
over the place. We have to choose now. Are we going to be part of
the global religious system or are we going to believe that Jesus
Christ is the only way to God and be seen by the world as intolerant?
I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way,but thats not what the
Global religion is going to say.
The choice will be up to each person to make.
I believe in YEC and the pre-trib rapture,though they both get
frowned on pretty heavily. I have my reasons.
Andy thanks for bringing these issues out into the light.

 

[bluejeans]

I know what mhess is talking about. We have both seen it happen.
People today can believe any way they wish to believe,but what
are you going to do when the global religious system of the NWO
takes effect? Thats the bottom line to this debate it seems because
many will believe that it's going to create revival,while some of us
believe it will be the apostasy. Whose right and whose wrong?

 

[GodSaves]

Welcome to this part of the forum bluejeans. I apologize for the reason why you came. I hope you enjoy it here, standing for Christ.

God Bless

 

[troodon]

People today can believe any way they wish to believe,but what
are you going to do when the global religious system of the NWO
takes effect? Thats the bottom line to this debate it seems because
many will believe that it's going to create revival,while some of us
believe it will be the apostasy. Whose right and whose wrong?

 

[Vance]

I second that emoticon!

 

[Andy D]

Andy,there are already people doing that now. They are saying
that there are many ways to God. Thats what inter-faithism is doing
and it's spreading pretty fast now. Look it up on the internet. It's all
over the place. We have to choose now. Are we going to be part of
the global religious system or are we going to believe that Jesus
Christ is the only way to God and be seen by the world as intolerant?
I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way,but thats not what the
Global religion is going to say.
The choice will be up to each person to make.
I believe in YEC and the pre-trib rapture,though they both get
frowned on pretty heavily. I have my reasons.
Andy thanks for bringing these issues out into the light.

I just quote one verse at my Christian friends who accept the Hindu religion as being a way as well....John 14:6 contradicts all religions that say there is another way to the Father and it was said by Jesus. He said He is THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE and NO man comes unto the Father EXCEPT through HIM.

I can quote this verse and the one world religion that will someday become the religion will have to deny this verse in order to accept other religions. It is already up to each person to make a choice but i pray people will make the right choice because there is no second chance once we leave this earth. We are in times when we cant even preach the whole Bible anymore without breaking the laws of the country we live in. We must change our interpretation of verses on homesexuality to fit with the social environment. We must change our interpretation of creation to fit with the world and change so many other things just so everyone can have their way...MAN first and then God....that is how this world wants it....and they shall get it...but it comes at a price of death.

 

[Vance]

Andy, be careful of falling into the fallacy of the slippery slope. Just because some of the developments within modern Christianity are bad, that does not mean they all are. Once again, we must look at geocentrism. Some Christians believed (and many still do believe) that accepting a heliocentric explanation of our solar system was accepting man's wisdom over God's Word. It required that they change their interpretation of Scripture to fit this new discovery. Many "stood firm" against it, being true to the Word against the incursions of worldly compromises. Many still feel this way about geocentrism. The modern geocentrist would call you a compromiser, since you accept Man's science over what they see as the plain and simple teaching of Scripture. They are wrong, you are not a compromiser.

Any more than those who accept evolution are compromisers.

Each issue must be looked at individually so that we rightly divide the word of truth, rather that lump all change as part of the same trend.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Ok here's one statement and I'm loosely quoting and I wont name names.
A certain TE said that the way he sees it "God basically has a big problem. Most people aren't good enough to go to heaven, yet not bad enough to go to hell."

Hellooooooooooooooooooooo, Vance you claim to be Bible-believing and I believe you are Assemblies of God , right? SO will you at least agree that this person does not understand the plan of salvation? Can we agree that this statement flies in the face of everything the Bible teaches?

Vance, can't you agree that the guy who said atheists can go to heaven doesn't understand the plan of salvation?

C'mon Vance, time to step up. Actually, you ought to be PMing me for names so that you can reach them with the gospel...

I was once reprimanded and lectured by a fellow TE on this forum because i said that atheists were going to hell. He read me the riot act! Imagine that, according to this TE an atheist can go to heaven! Hello????????????????

Okay... So you do not believe in Gods power to judge a persons heart? You do not believe that Jesus will stand up for you as a sinner and not stand up for another that has not heard the message from someone believable?

You would deny salvation to those God might find fit just because you dislike them, that you cannot understand why they might not believe?

Ultimate salvation of anyone, including you and me and atheists and anyone else is up to God, not the labels we give eachother or stick on our own shirts.

I return that sarcastic "Hello??????" and remind you that it is by the grace of God we are saved, not the labels we choose to call ourselves by.