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The majority of fundamentalists NOT committed to a young earth?

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Vance

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Young Earth Creationists often express shock and amazement that fellow Christians might accept evolution and an old earth. It is as if they think theistic evolution is a fringe element of compromising Christians, not mainstream Christianity. Here are some numbers:

Here is a poll of Americans in general (the formatting wouldn't hold, so you will have to match them up):

1. Creationist view 2.Theistic evolution 3. Naturalistic Evolution

Everyone 47% 40% 9%
Men 39% 45% 11.5%
Women 53% 36% 6.6%
College graduates 25% 54% 16.5%
No high school diploma 65% 23% 4.6%
Income over $50,000 29% 50% 17%
Income under $20,000 59% 28% 6.5%
Caucasians 46% 40% 9%
Afro-Americans 53% 41% 4%


In 1999-NOV, Focus on the Family, a Fundamentalist Christian agency, concluded a poll of their web site visitors concerning their beliefs about creation and evolution. Results were:
God created the universe, but I don't know when: 46%
God created the universe thousands of years ago: 43%
God created the universe billions of years ago: 10%
Life came into being and evolved on its own: 1%
I don't have a clue: 0.4%

Now, when you look at this more closely, you will notice that the first category in effect denies that a literal reading of Genesis (genealogies, etc) is absolutely required, since they are open to other possibilities. Basically, less than half of these fundamentalists were committed to a YEC viewpoint. It is unfortunate that they worded the poll so poorly, since it has three options dealing with the age of the earth and one dealing with evolution. Also, even though this was an internet poll, this ministry is mostly US-based.

As for outside the US:

A British survey of 103 Roman Catholic priests, Anglican bishops and Protestant ministers/pastors showed that:
97% do not believe the world was created in six days.
80% do not believe in the existence of Adam and Eve.


Now, someone will say "origins is not a popularity contest" or "the majority is not always right", and I would agree. My point is that here in the US, if you are raised in a YEC teaching household and church, it is easy to come to the conclusion that YEC is the mainstream Christian viewpoint.
 

Vance

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mhess13 said:
This whole thread is blah blah blah

Ok, most christians dont believe YEC. there are bible-believing TE's. YEC is a stumbling block

blah blah blah

how many of the same threads do you need to start?
Did Barnabas ask Paul "how many of these darn churches do you need to start, anyway? Your just saying the same thing over and over . . ."
 
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Vance

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Well, think about it. Paul was attempting to preach the gospel to gentiles, but he had to deal with the Christian Judaizers who were insisting that, in order to be a Christian, they must all be circumcised. This created a major stumbling block to these potential gentile Christians for no good reason since it was not a salvation issue. Paul argued with his fellow Christians that this stumbling block should be removed, which greatly offended some of the other Christians.

Now, I am no Paul (understatement of the year), I can only do God's work in my little corner. But I must follow his example and perservere in the effort to provide a ramp over the stumbling blocks to the Cross. Every soul counts.
 
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GodSaves

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Vance, for one no man saves anyone. God alone saves, we plant, He harvests. Two, if you are the 'stumbling block ramp maker' then you have more ramps to make because there are bigger issues for those who choose no to follow Christ (Christ being God for one). Thirdly, Paul preached the Gospel, you are preaching evolution, there is no comparison here. Jesus clearly preached that it is what is in your heart that counts, the trust and faith you have in God that matters. That you believe what God said is true, beyond all else. Not just truth, but true because God cannot lie or deceive.
 
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Vance

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GodSaves said:
Vance, for one no man saves anyone. God alone saves, we plant, He harvests. Two, if you are the 'stumbling block ramp maker' then you have more ramps to make because there are bigger issues for those who choose no to follow Christ (Christ being God for one). Thirdly, Paul preached the Gospel, you are preaching evolution, there is no comparison here. Jesus clearly preached that it is what is in your heart that counts, the trust and faith you have in God that matters. That you believe what God said is true, beyond all else. Not just truth, but true because God cannot lie or deceive.
1. We plant, He harvests. Agreed.

2. I know I can not overcome every ramp placed in path of the Cross, even for those I witness to. But I can do what I can in my little corner, with my meager efforts to do God's work.

3. I also preach the Gospel, and no, I don't preach evolution. Paul preached the Gospel and found his fellow Christians placing an unecessary stumbling block in the way. I preach the Gospel and find my fellow Christians placing an unecessary stumbling block in the way. Seems the same to me.

As for the rest of your statement, I completely agree. It is not how you believe about origins, whether special creation 6,000 years ago or billions of years ago using evolutionary development, that matters in the least. So why are Creationist ministries going on these campaigns against differing views of origins when it is not a salvation issue?
 
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GodSaves

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Vance said:
So why are Creationist ministries going on these campaigns against differing views of origins when it is not a salvation issue?
Because it is a trust issue, which you disagree on. It is called different opinions. If we were all truly led by the Holy Spirit in our understanding of the Bible, then there would no differing in opinions.

Maybe you are in agreeance with the polls you presented in another post that can lead one to think that people are now becoming more like Jesus everyday. Basically our world in the polls are finally coming together in our belief.

Or there is the Bible version where the world will get increasing worse before the second coming of Christ.
 
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Vance

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GodSaves said:
Because it is a trust issue, which you disagree on. It is called different opinions. If we were all truly led by the Holy Spirit in our understanding of the Bible, then there would no differing in opinions.
But that is what I don't get. Us TE's are here saying that we should allow people to have their differing opinions on the matters of origins! It is the YEC ministries that are saying not just that there are differing opinions, but that anything other than YEC is the equivalent of not accepting Scripture, not trusting God, etc, etc. This is the whole problem.

As for the Spirit's guidance, it is one of those mysteries of Christian life. We have hundreds of Christian denominations because of Christians honestly believing they are being led by the Holy Spirit to read the Scripture in different ways than the group down the road. They are open to the Spirit, seeking the Spirit's guidance, and yet come to different conclusions about a wide myriad of issues. Which means that every Christian that ever lived was wrong about some matters of doctrine since the Church began, including you and I.

So, if the Spirit actually did seek to guide Christians on every matter of doctrine (whether salvation issues or not), then what does this say about how well the Spirit can guide humans? I don't know the answer to that question, but I know for sure that there can not possibly be any Christian group out there who has gotten it right on every matter of doctrine.

Personally, I feel no doubt whatsoever that I am led by the Spirit in this matter of origins. I would assume that you feel the same. Go figure.

GodSaves said:
Maybe you are in agreeance with the polls you presented in another post that can lead one to think that people are now becoming more like Jesus everyday. Basically our world in the polls are finally coming together in our belief.

Or there is the Bible version where the world will get increasing worse before the second coming of Christ.
I am not sure which poll you are referring to, but I for one don't believe that people are becoming more like Jesus every day. Not by a long shot.
 
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GodSaves

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Vance said:
But that is what I don't get. Us TE's are here saying that we should allow people to have their differing opinions on the matters of origins! It is the YEC ministries that are saying not just that there are differing opinions, but that anything other than YEC is the equivalent of not accepting Scripture, not trusting God, etc, etc. This is the whole problem.

As for the Spirit's guidance, it is one of those mysteries of Christian life. We have hundreds of Christian denominations because of Christians honestly believing they are being led by the Holy Spirit to read the Scripture in different ways than the group down the road. They are open to the Spirit, seeking the Spirit's guidance, and yet come to different conclusions about a wide myriad of issues. Which means that every Christian that ever lived was wrong about some matters of doctrine since the Church began, including you and I.

So, if the Spirit actually did seek to guide Christians on every matter of doctrine (whether salvation issues or not), then what does this say about how well the Spirit can guide humans? I don't know the answer to that question, but I know for sure that there can not possibly be any Christian group out there who has gotten it right on every matter of doctrine.

Personally, I feel no doubt whatsoever that I am led by the Spirit in this matter of origins. I would assume that you feel the same. Go figure.
First off, is this forum the ministry that is out to tell all those who don't believe in creationism are going to hell? Basically a salvation issue.

I think that the whole(all of the post) have not been about salvation, but about trust. Trust in God's Word.

All of the apostles lacked faith many times in different areas, yet they were saved because of Christ. WHy? Because of God's Awesome Mecry.

Something you said in another post is that you are arguing/debating against the thought of YEC. I have said the same about TE. You said that you were not directing your thoughts concerns directly at the person, but the teaching. I have said the same.

You have accused me of saying you lack faith and your salvation is lost or soon to be lost. I have never said those words. I have spoke against the teachings of TE as you have spoken against the teachings of YEC. You have said it was not a personally attack against the people who believe YEC, but against the teaching. I have said the same.

SOmehow neither of us seems to deliver our thoughts very well, for others to take our arguements against the teachings and not against the people. As you said go figure. =)

So, if this forum, this very forum is not going out and telling everyone that if they don't accept YEC, they are going to hell, then why do you repeatedly post in here and not where it really is an issue?

I know you probably won't believe this, but from my perspective I have not ever questioned your salvation. I believe you when you say your faith in Christ is secure. I just don't think you undertand Genesis very well, but that is only my opinion.

God Bless
 
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Andy D

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Vance said:
As for the rest of your statement, I completely agree. It is not how you believe about origins, whether special creation 6,000 years ago or billions of years ago using evolutionary development, that matters in the least. So why are Creationist ministries going on these campaigns against differing views of origins when it is not a salvation issue?
I guess the reason they go on these campaigns is for the same reason Christian politicians try to get moral issues looked at in parliament. They believe that the Bible is clear on a certain issue as I also do, and dont want people believing what they truly believe is a lie, that is evolution. There are always exceptions on both sides where people will spread either creation or evolution and not really understand the evidence on either side but I think if one does a lot of study on the book of Genesis (believing it to be the inspired word of God as written in Peter), the one might find that it isnt just an allogorical account of man evolving.
 
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Vance

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Here is what YEC's often say:

1. The Bible and evolution are mutually contradictory, thus if Scripture is true, evolution is not true.

2. If you believe in evolution, you obviously don't believe the Bible.

These HAVE been said on this forum. Now, if you say someone doesn't believe the Scripture, what are you saying about their Christianity? If you say they place their trust in man and not in God, what are you saying about their Christianity? And yes, all of these are personal attacks, not just attacks against a doctrine. You are saying that "if YOU believe X, then . . ." This is personal.

And, yes, it IS making it a salvation issue. The argument has been made "well, if you don't accept Genesis, you can't accept any of Scripture." That makes it a salvation issue. Similar statements have been made that a belief in evolution denies the miracles described in the Bible, which include the resurrection. This is a salvation issue. Basically YEC's here and elsewhere have taken the "slippery slope" approach, saying that a belief in evolution will necessarily lead to a disbelief in all that is Christianity. This is obviously a salvation issue.

Saying that a person who accepts evolution does not trust God and does not believe the Bible is both a personal attack AND it makes the issue a salvation issue.


More particularly, YEC's here and on the other forum have come right out and said that if you believe in evolution, you can't really be Christian. Maybe not you, but it has been said. Regardless, there IS a difference between the types of statements made above about the consequences of a personal belief and my arguments against the doctrine that stands behind those very attacks.

I have said over and over that I have no problem with anyone believing in YEC'ism. I don't think it effects their Christianity in the least. I think it is wrong, but it is a non-issue for anything important about Christianity other than that part of it which creates a stumbling block for others.
 
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Andy D

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Vance said:
Here is what YEC's often say:

1. The Bible and evolution are mutually contradictory, thus if Scripture is true, evolution is not true.

2. If you believe in evolution, you obviously don't believe the Bible.

These HAVE been said on this forum. Now, if you say someone doesn't believe the Scripture, what are you saying about their Christianity? If you say they place their trust in man and not in God, what are you saying about their Christianity? And yes, all of these are personal attacks, not just attacks against a doctrine. You are saying that "if YOU believe X, then . . ." This is personal.

And, yes, it IS making it a salvation issue. The argument has been made "well, if you don't accept Genesis, you can't accept any of Scripture." That makes it a salvation issue. Similar statements have been made that a belief in evolution denies the miracles described in the Bible, which include the resurrection. This is a salvation issue. Basically YEC's here and elsewhere have taken the "slippery slope" approach, saying that a belief in evolution will necessarily lead to a disbelief in all that is Christianity. This is obviously a salvation issue.

Saying that a person who accepts evolution does not trust God and does not believe the Bible is both a personal attack AND it makes the issue a salvation issue.

More particularly, YEC's here and on the other forum have come right out and said that if you believe in evolution, you can't really be Christian. Maybe not you, but it has been said. Regardless, there IS a difference between the types of statements made above about the consequences of a personal belief and my arguments against the doctrine that stands behind those very attacks.

I have said over and over that I have no problem with anyone believing in YEC'ism. I don't think it effects their Christianity in the least. I think it is wrong, but it is a non-issue for anything important about Christianity other than that part of it which creates a stumbling block for others.
Many TE's I have debated with, have stated clearly that they dont believe a lot of the Bible is truth, but rather just stories and that we believe the Gospels of Christ but they even dispute many of the letters written by Paul were inspired by God. I know from reading the posts of a very small number of TE's that they do have a problem with salvation because they cant even state they have a testimony...but I believe a large number of TE's are Christians and probably very active Christians in many ways, but I still believe that they are not interpreting Genesis correctly and they need to question how far they go with interpreting the Bible as allogorical. If they go too far, what of the Gospels of Christ? Whilst the versions of the Bible we currently have are only translations of the copies of the text we have, I believe all scripture was originally inspired by God and is all truth and where something is a parable, it is clear that it what it is. Where it is a song, that is also clear. Where it is an actual account of what happened, it appears clear to me too based on the study I have done and others around me. It isnt just fundamentals who believe in YEC because I know many pentecostal Christians and from many different churches who differ on many other beliefs and yet still didnt believe me when I told them many Christians believe in TE.
 
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mhess13

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Put it this way, I have met LOTS of TEs who deny the essentials of the faith. BUT I have never met a YEC who denies the essentials of the faith

But Vance keeps throwing up a strawman saying YECs make it a salvation issue. This isn't true and we all know it. Just because I believe that "if i can't trust the first few chapters of the Bible, how then can i trust the gospels?" THat does not mean that a TE cannot be saved anyone who will:
Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
WILL BE SAVED even they are ignorant (or willfully ignorant) about the creation account
 
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