The Lucifer Story is Impossible

[wezcountry]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Didn't he lead the music or worship? If this is so, he would have known the full power and majesty of God. Surely therefore he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

 

[Yekcidmij]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Didn't he lead the music or worship? If this is so, he would have known the full power and majesty of God. Surely therefore he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

Where in the bible does it talk about Lucifer being a minister of music?

 

[Jpark]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Didn't he lead the music or worship? If this is so, he would have known the full power and majesty of God. Surely therefore he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

Satan was spurred on by inherent evil desire. Angels (apparently) have the capability to manifest evil influences into existence. Satan was probably thinking, "I can't go against my Creator" but his inclination to rebel was greater.

Of course, Satan is not enslaved to sin. Sin is subservient to Satan.

Also, it wasn't necessarily a rebellion. God gave Satan the choice to serve Him. In other words, Satan was given free will.

 

[wezcountry]

Satan was spurred on by inherent evil desire. Angels (apparently) have the capability to manifest evil influences into existence. Satan was probably thinking, "I can't go against my Creator" but his inclination to rebel was greater.

Of course, Satan is not enslaved to sin. Sin is subservient to Satan.

Also, it wasn't necessarily a rebellion. God gave Satan the choice to serve Him. In other words, Satan was given free will.

Hey thanks for taking the time to reply. I still don't see how this can be. For example, isn't it impossible to have sin in God's presence?

 

[beforHim]

This is a good question. I answer it this way: the Bible really gives us very little info on angels, on being in God's presence, on Satan/the devil, etc. The reason I say this: a LOT of the places in the Bible were it speaks of angels and demons, say Eden (the snake), or revelation, or almost any vision, is HIGHLY symbolic. I'm not here saying "myth" or "amillennialism" (preterism for me!), I'm just saying that we follow some traditions way too much when they should be discarded, and the whole deal on angels is one of those which we should step back and say, "Wow, there really isn't much there, I shouldn't speculate- so why are we doing it?"



As far as sinning in God's presence- I don't think it ever says, straight up, no one could sin in His presence. But if we look at my reasoning above- not enough info to make any kind of educated guess- then really questions like this, while good to think on and toss around, are not things which should a) make or break one's faith, and b) take up as much time in our Christian life as, say, teaching people about eternal acts/decisions/things, learning how Jesus did stuff, explaining big problems like evil etc.

 

[he-man]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Didn't he lead the music or worship? If this is so, he would have known the full power and majesty of God. Surely therefore he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

Isaiah's Lucifer (Isaiah 14) Main article: Lucifer
Since the time of Origen and Jerome[4] some Christian concepts of the devil have include the Morning Star in Isaiah 14:12, which is translated Lucifer "Light Bringer" in the Latin Vulgate, and directly from Latin into the KJV as a name "Lucifer"[5][6] ^ When the Bible was translated into Latin (the Vulgate), the name Lucifer appeared as a translation of "Morning Star", or the planet Venus, in Isaiah 14:12. Isaiah 14:1-23 is a passage largely concerned with the plight of Babylon, and its king is referred to as "morning star, son of the dawn". This is because the Babylonian king was considered to be of godly status and of symbolic divine parentage (Bel and Ishtar, associated with the planet Venus).


While this information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.



Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.



The Hebrew Bible word for the Devil, which was later translated to "Lucifer" in English, is הילל (transliterated HYLL). Though this word, Heilel, has come to be translated as "morning-star" from the Septuagint's translation of the Scriptures, the letter ה in Hebrew often indicates singularity, much as the English "the," in which case the translation would be ה "the" ילל "yell," or "the wailing yell."


Later, for unknown reasons, Christian demonologists appeared to designate "Satan", "Lucifer", and "Beelzebub" as different entities, each with a different rank in the demonic hierarchy. One hypothesis is that this might have been an attempt to establish a demonic trinity with the same person, akin to the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, but most demonologists do not carry this view.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High."
Isa 14:15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.

You forgot verse 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying,Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
​

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.
Christian teaching about the Devil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6
This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament (Zondervan Publishers Electronic Dictionary) Zondervan - Home
If it is found at all!

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.

1. Originally, only the epithet of "the satan" ("the adversary") was used to denote the character in the Hebrew deity's court that later became known as "the Devil." (The term "satan" was also used to designate human enemies of the Hebrews that Yahweh raised against them.)

The article was lost and this title became a proper name: Satan. There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
2. T. J. Wray, Gregory Mobley The birth of Satan pp.66-68
3. has been erroneously interpreted by some to mean Satan, "the Devil", but such is not the case. The Hebrew Bible views ha-satan as an angel ministering to the desires of God, acting as Chief Prosecutor.

 

[Jase]

As I understand it according to the Bible Lucifer is a fallen angel who rebelled against God. Didn't he lead the music or worship? If this is so, he would have known the full power and majesty of God. Surely therefore he would have realised that a rebelion would be futile?

Actually, according to Christian mythology, Lucifer is a fallen angel. The Lucifer story is rather unbiblical.

 

[bibleblevr]

Yes, you are right, he knew he would lose. Winning was not his object, he was willing to trade his high place serving God for a brief chance to be the prince of Gods world instead of God.

Remember when Satan brought Jesus to a high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world? He offered the same temptation to Christ that caused him to fall. He fell because he bowed to only himself in order that all the kingdoms of the world would bow to him.

Good news is that Jesus bound the strong Man, and us, his church, can now join him in plundering Satan's house by making disciples of all nations and claiming the earth for the rightful King.

 

[beforHim]

And like I said:

really questions like this, while good to think on and toss around, are not things which should a) make or break one's faith, and b) take up as much time in our Christian life as, say, teaching people about eternal acts/decisions/things, learning how Jesus did stuff, explaining big problems like evil etc.

 

[Emmy]

Dear wezcountry. I always felt there is something wrong with it, and I believe what Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible says: The Origin Of Satan Is Unknown." God is Love and would never be part of creating Satan, and we know that God is also Omniscient, God would have seen what Satan has in mind. I say this with love, wezcountry. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Jpark]

Hey thanks for taking the time to reply. I still don't see how this can be. For example, isn't it impossible to have sin in God's presence?

If Ezek. 28 is twofold and also refers to Satan, then notice it says "Eden of God", not the presence of God.

But if Satan rebelled in the presence of God, then it wasn't disobedience. Like I said, it was a choice which was granted by God.

Satan is not judged for his deeds, since his deeds are in accordance to God's will.

Satan is judged for his evil desires and enmity with God and hatred towards God.

 

[wezcountry]

And like I said:

actually this issue (and several others) are major stumbling blocks for me.

 

[he-man]

Dear wezcountry. I always felt there is something wrong with it, and I believe what Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible says: The Origin Of Satan Is Unknown." God is Love and would never be part of creating Satan, and we know that God is also Omniscient, God would have seen what Satan has in mind. I say this with love, wezcountry. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Dear Sister, think again:

Just as the LORD'S DESTROYER passed over the "the blood upon the lintel" and smote the Egyuptians, His mighty ANGELS will abolish those whosoever receiveth the mark of beast and his image"

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6

This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament (Zondervan Publishers Electronic Dictionary) Zondervan - Home
If it is to be found at all!

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.

1. Originally, only the epithet of "the satan" ("the adversary") was used to denote the character in the Hebrew deity's court that later became known as "the Devil." (The term "satan" was also used to designate human enemies of the Hebrews that Yahweh raised against them.)

The article was lost and this title became a proper name: Satan. There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
2. T. J. Wray, Gregory Mobley The birth of Satan pp.66-68
3. has been erroneously interpreted by some to mean Satan, "the Devil", but such is not the case. The Hebrew Bible views ha-satan as an angel ministering to the desires of God, acting as Chief Prosecutor.

The Pharisees were an adversary which is why Christ accused them when he said, ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me,

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father ..38 ..and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 44 ..the lusts of your father ye will do

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father, a slanderer, and the lusts of your father ye will do. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Numbers 22:22 Then God's anger was aroused because he went, and the Angel of the LORD took His stand in the way as an adversary against him. And he was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him.

Maybe the most intriguing detail here is that the word adversary is, in Hebrew, satan, which means generally "adversary, enemy, foe."

God sent the Angel of the LORD who was the Satan who came out against Balaam just as Peter was when he spoke out against Christ.

Mr 8:33 But he turning back, and seeing his disciples, reprimanded Peter, and said, Get back behind me, adversary [Satan]; because you are not thinking the things of God, but the things of men.

Consider who does test your mind, is it the False Satan or GOD?
Jeremiah 17:9 " The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
(10) I, the LORD, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.

"Unless you repent you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3)

Are you hiding from a False Satan or from the God who is in Hell and controls everything everywhere?

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there:if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Does the False Satan punish the wicked in Hell or does God?

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

What? No False Satan, just bloody men who are your enemies?

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

Who will try you, the False Satan or God?

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Who is the False Satan like the Fig tree?

Parable of the Fig Tree
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Moved to Exploring Christianity.

 

[he-man]

Moved to Exploring Christianity.

Bye,Now back to the TOPIC:
satan is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament

Superman and Satan are imaginary characters dreamed up by man to replace Christ and to hide their own Sin.

Sorcery or the power of commanding evil spirits is like the foolishness of people who believe in a Literal Satan and is idolatry.

1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

satan is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament

Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here.

While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible.

Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition.

Satan Sa'tan. The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an "adversary," and is so used in 1 Sam 29:4; 2 Sam 19:22; 1 Kin 6:4; 11:14, 23, 25; Numb 22:22, 33; Psal 109:6
This original sense is still found in our Lord's application of the name to St. Peter in Matt 16:23 It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in Job 1:6, 12; 2:1; Zech 2:1 and without the article in 1 Chr 21:1

It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament (Zondervan Publishers Electronic Dictionary) Zondervan - Home

Much of the popular history of the Devil is not biblical; instead, it is a post-medieval Christian reading of the scriptures influenced by medieval and pre-medieval Christian popular mythology.

1. Originally, only the epithet of "the satan" ("the adversary") was used to denote the character in the Hebrew deity's court that later became known as "the Devil." (The term "satan" was also used to designate human enemies of the Hebrews that Yahweh raised against them.)

The article was lost and this title became a proper name: Satan. There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.
2. T. J. Wray, Gregory Mobley The birth of Satan pp.66-68
3. has been erroneously interpreted by some to mean Satan, "the Devil", but such is not the case. The Hebrew Bible views ha-satan as an angel ministering to the desires of God, acting as Chief Prosecutor.

Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,

(11) or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritualist, or one who calls up the dead.

(12) For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you.

Lev 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit idolatry with Molech, from among their people.

6 And the soul that turns after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Ex 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

Lucifer isn't a name for the devil in the Bible, it's an anglicized form of the Latin translation of the epithet which the Prophet Isaiah gives to the king of Babylon in his prophecy against said king of Babylon.

The Bible itself says exceedingly little about the devil's origins or the like; though the theme of fallen angels was strong during the Second Temple Period and such themes would have been a substantial foundation for the development of Christian thought about the nature and origins of the devil both during the apostolic period and beyond.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[solarwave]

To be honest we don't know enough to say what Satan is or what happened. I'm sure a good reason could be given for how Satan fell, but if not that is ok because this understand in Christianity does seem that important at all in my opinion.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Lucifer isn't a name for the devil in the Bible, it's an anglicized form of the Latin translation of the epithet which the Prophet Isaiah gives to the king of Babylon in his prophecy against said king of Babylon.

The Bible itself says exceedingly little about the devil's origins or the like; though the theme of fallen angels was strong during the Second Temple Period and such themes would have been a substantial foundation for the development of Christian thought about the nature and origins of the devil both during the apostolic period and beyond.

-CryptoLutheran

Nevertheless, 'Lucifer' has become the name of what many believe is: a perfectly created, beautiful, smart, bejeweled being that loves music, who is strongly identified with 'the Eden, or 'pleasure', of God, who was not confined to a ritual 'place' at the throne of God but was able to freely move about the heavenly court, desired and sought equality with God, was removed and cast down to earth, and thereafter became the 'adversary' of God and the 'man' that was created for the purpose of replacing 'him' at the right hand of God. Without (the one known as) Lucifer being an actual spiritual being nothing makes any sense.

 

[salida]

The lucifier story is possible because the bible is very credible.

Research the credibility of the bible concerning overwhelming circumstantial evidence which is very high even though it’s a spiritual decision first-than secondly an intellectual one. I have studied other religions and they don’t come close to this evidence.
www.TheBibleProofBook.com, (you will need acrobat reader for this), read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell a former agnostic- (its overwhelming circumstantial evidence of bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster a former athiest/The Case for Christ and The Real Jesus by Lee Strobel a former athiest.

http://www.reasonableanswers.org/12-Eyewitnesses-of-the-resurrection.html
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html
http://equip.org/articles/a-defense-of-sola-scriptura
http://equip.org/articles/bible-reliability

 

[visionary]

Til iniquity was found...