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And if the newer translation were inaccurate, I'd definitely take issue with that. But it really isn't.
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The Lord's Prayer
- Thread starter Carl Emerson
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- Apr 25, 2016
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I'm saying peirasmon has a semantic range in English which includes all of the different words we see in these translations. In that sense, none of them are "wrong." I think there are good reasons - linguistic, theological and pastoral - to prefer "trial" to "temptation" in this case, but it's not like I'd refuse to use "temptation." Like I said, it's often the preferred version for funerals.
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- Dec 18, 2017
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Yes understand - so the conclusion is that most of our bibles are not fit for purpose when it comes to the Sunday service.
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RamiC
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Church of England here 
(member, not Priest)...we have two versions in use,
Contemporary
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power,
and the glory are yours
now and for ever.
Amen.
Traditional
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.
The Lord's Prayer | The Church of England
No spare us from the time of trial, and I do not like the look of that, because we will not be spared from a time of trial, people need to know that trials and difficulties in life will happen. Whereas resistance to temptation and delery from evil we can expect and trust God to provide.
(member, not Priest)...we have two versions in use,Contemporary
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power,
and the glory are yours
now and for ever.
Amen.
Traditional
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.
The Lord's Prayer | The Church of England
No spare us from the time of trial, and I do not like the look of that, because we will not be spared from a time of trial, people need to know that trials and difficulties in life will happen. Whereas resistance to temptation and delery from evil we can expect and trust God to provide.
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- Apr 25, 2016
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That's probably a stronger statement than I would make.
I think most translations are adequate, in most instances. There will be particular reasons to prefer one translation over another, in different contexts.
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- May 19, 2018
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For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
Thing is, this bit is not original either!
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RamiC
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No, but it is only a doxology, and I see no problem with it being there, as long as that is known. It is not an alteration to the meaning.
If someone is visiting us from a different denomination, and they say "Praise Jesus" at the end, no big deal. "Spare us from the time of trial" sounds to me like "God, please do not be God", and that is misleading.
His kingdom is His, all power should be His, all glory...
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- Jan 18, 2012
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That final portion was traditionally said only by the priest and thus did not need to be in the pew missals. Better trained Catholic churches will still often follow that convention.
Last edited:
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- Jan 18, 2012
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These choices are not always easy. Nor does a newer usage mean that an older choice was wrong at the time that it was made. Let me present another example. Psalm 51 is one of the traditional texts appointed for Ash Wednesday but there is a specific section of the larger Psalm which is often used as a separate Canticle, generally under the name of "Create in me a clean heart, O God."
Referencing the KJV we get:
The first thing that readily appears when you start doing a comparison of these few lines across versions is that the versification can vary dramatically. These can fall into a range pretty much anywhere between 10-15.
But my particular interest is the last line, "and uphold me with thy free spirit." Here, the translators have assigned the identity of this spirit as something belonging to God. Many others have chosen a rendering that would seem to indicate that this spirit is the author's or they might not try to make a choice. Here are a few samples:
Referencing the KJV we get:
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
The first thing that readily appears when you start doing a comparison of these few lines across versions is that the versification can vary dramatically. These can fall into a range pretty much anywhere between 10-15.
But my particular interest is the last line, "and uphold me with thy free spirit." Here, the translators have assigned the identity of this spirit as something belonging to God. Many others have chosen a rendering that would seem to indicate that this spirit is the author's or they might not try to make a choice. Here are a few samples:
NABRE: uphold me with a willing spirit.
NRSV: and sustain in me a willing[a] spirit. (the footnote suggests 'generous')
NLT: and make me willing to obey you.
EHV: Sustain me with a willing spirit.
NIV: and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
CSB: and sustain me by giving me a willing spirit.
GNV: and establish me with thy free Spirit.
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- Jul 12, 2016
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The Australian Usage was founded on the Œcumenical text. Copyright © 1988 English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC).
The full document can be found here. https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/a42fbdb2/files/uploaded/praying.pdf
The most relevant paragraph I place here for those who don't want to follow links,
I think that make the case well, however others may have a different view.
The full document can be found here. https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/a42fbdb2/files/uploaded/praying.pdf
The most relevant paragraph I place here for those who don't want to follow links,
Line 9. “Save us from the time of trial.” Two errors must be avoided in this line. The first is the misconception that God would “tempt” or entice people to evil, and the second is to think that the original Greek word peirasmos means “temptation” as it is meant today. The reference here is primarily eschatological—a petition for deliverance from the final “time of trial” which, in biblical thought, marks the last days and the full revelation of the anti-Christ. The peril envisaged is that of apostasy—the renunciation of the Christian faith in the time of suffering and persecution which is expected to herald the final triumph of God’s kingdom (Luke 22:31, 32, 40: Revelation 3:10). Yet a reference to any occasion of testing, including the lure to sin, is not excluded. Commenting on this line, Luther speaks of “despair, unbelief, and other great and shameful sins,” which is his way of saying that ultimately all sin is a failure of faith. The Consultation considered whether to restore the negative of the original by writing a more literal version of the Greek—“Do not bring us to a time of trial.” The practical problem of making a change at this stage, however, when many Churches have overcome the difficulty of adopting the ICET version, was too great to be countenanced. In the end, the Consultation was persuaded that the preposition “from” sufficiently conveyed the negative sense (compare “Do not let the children starve” and “Save the children from starving”), while avoiding the misleading inferences mentioned above. Attention was also given to a request that “from” be changed to “in.” Apart from weakening the negative force of the original, it was considered that “in” conveyed only one of the two principal meanings of the line, that is, either a request to be spared from coming to the time of trial or a request to be spared, when one is in a time of trial, from its effects, especially from apostasy.
I think that make the case well, however others may have a different view.
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[posting in fellowship]
My Scripture Professor in college said the Doxology was originally written in Syriac rather than Koine Greek, which is why some include it, and others do not.
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