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First off, Kylie, this doesn´t seem to help answering the question whether God exists or not (which, I think, was the topic - correct me if I am wrong).
Secondly, and more generally, you changed from an epistemological question to a question of valuation.
Can´t speak for Leslie, but I suspect he´ll answer that things are good or bad because God says so (I think that´s what is meant my "moral authority"). Basically it is a "might makes right" understanding.
This answer will, of course, cause some problems. Then again, I wouldn´t know how to answer "What makes something moral or immoral?" without running into such problems. Do you?
(Of course, it all depends on your definition of "moral"...)
(Sidenote: I think "murder" is not a good example, because "murder" is defined as "immoral killing", and thus there can´t be "moral murder", by way of using language properly.)
So if God came to you and told you that you had a free pass, what would you do? God says you can do whatever you want - you can kill, steal, maim, anything at all, and you would never be caught by any Human authorities, and you would not be sent to Hell, but guaranteed a place in Heaven no matter what. Would you become a killer?
Personally, as an atheist I start with the null hypothesis: "There is no God" and work to reject that. So far I have found insufficient reason to reject the null.
So, Kylie, I agree with your point that it is perfectly rational to debate all theology from that standpoint.
HOWEVER, if one wishes to debate with Christians over a specific point of the theology I find it more interesting to work within the confines of the faith itself. So if I were to be debating a Christian over whether they should support gun control I would work within the framework of Jesus' actual existence and his exhortation in Matthew 26:52. In that case I would be working from the assumption that God is real and Jesus was God, etc.
Exactly. Morality is always going to be subjective, never objective.
No. Some time back somebody made the surprising discovery that the majority of soldiers went through the Second World War without firing their rifles once. So great is our disinclination to kill (most of us).
But wouldn't you say we got this disinclination to kill from God?
And hasn't God just relieved you of that by saying you will suffer absolutely no ill consequences whatsoever?
Well, as you say: Based on your subjective morality (and some intersubjective and sometimes almost universally held morality - which isn´t "objective" in the way you´d use it).Which gets you back with the Nazis were a bit unsociable, but you can't say they were actually evil. After all, they presumably thought they were behaving in a highly moral way, and what business have you got judging them on the basis of your subjective morality?
Well, as you say: Based on your subjective morality
Which gets you back with the Nazis were a bit unsociable, but you can't say they were actually evil. After all, they presumably thought they were behaving in a highly moral way, and what business have you got judging them on the basis of your subjective morality?
A disinclination is something built into our psychology.
Well, I can demonstrate that they were causing harm to others, for a start.
By God, I'm sure you would agree.
But God has told you that such limitations no longer apply to you.
In any case, it's not just killing. You can steal if you want. If you are catching a taxi, you can just get out and walk away without paying when you get to your destination. Would you not even do that?
Are you saying I shouldn't stand up for those who are being oppressed?
I am saying that, beyond your personal dislike of what you were witnessing, you would have no basis for saying the Nazis were acting immorally. If morality is purely subjective, presumably their morality is as good as your morality.
Then neither do they have any basis for saying that they were acting morally. The knife cuts both ways.
No. Some time back somebody made the surprising discovery that the majority of soldiers went through the Second World War without firing their rifles once. So great is our disinclination to kill (most of us).
Which gets you back with the Nazis were a bit unsociable, but you can't say they were actually evil. After all, they presumably thought they were behaving in a highly moral way, and what business have you got judging them on the basis of your subjective morality?
But wouldn't you say we got this disinclination to kill from God?
I am saying that, beyond your personal dislike of what you were witnessing, you would have no basis for saying the Nazis were acting immorally. If morality is purely subjective, presumably their morality is as good as your morality.
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