The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8

[Trivalee]

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 8:9 Out of the mouth of them came a little horn which waxed exceeding great, towards the south and towards the east and toward the pleasant land.

Let's have a little fun with the little horns in Dan 7 and 8:

• Can you identify who they are?
• Are they the same person/entity or different personalities?
• Has the prophecy concerning been fulfilled or still in the future.
• In Dan 8:9, Can you identify the "south, the east and the pleasant land"; which kingdoms are they?

Please support your case with scripture, but not conjecture, please. If you quote scripture, be kind to explain how it ties into your narrative. Do not just copy+paste scripture with no explanation, leaving your readers to second guess how they relate to your argument.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Dan 8:9 Out of the mouth of them came a little horn which waxed exceeding great, towards the south and towards the east and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8:9
King James Version

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

what version of the bible are you using that says "Out of the mouth of them"

 

[3 Resurrections]

This post would actually be better served in the Christian History forum. NOT eschatology, since it has all been fulfilled long ago.

The 10 horns on the fourth beast (which was the Roman empire following the 3rd beast / the Greek empire) were all emperors from Julius Ceasar forward. The "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 among those ten horns was Nero; described as "little" because he was only 17 when he became emperor. Those three horns "plucked up by the roots" before Nero were the three emperors who were assassinated: Julius Caesar, Caligula, and Claudius, all of whom were killed without having a natural-born son who succeeded them.

Nero, the "little horn", was allowed by God to wage warfare against the saints for 42 months, as scripture foretold in both Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7. This took place from late AD 64 after the fire of Rome (blamed on the Christians) until just before Nero's death in AD 68. For those 42 months, the "little horn" was allowed to "wear out the saints" by persecution.

As for the other, different "little horn" (or the "strong horn" in the LXX) in Daniel 8:9, this one came out of the "goat" with the great, notable horn (which was Alexander the Great), whose Macedonian kingdom was split between four of his captains at his early death. Coming out from among those four captains, the "little horn" of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9 became exceeding great, and waged war against Israel for those 2,300 days, until the temple was finally cleansed after the Maccabean victories.

The "south, the east, and the pleasant land" I believe to be Egypt, Persia, and Israel respectively. The "South" was in reference to Egypt in several places in Daniel 11, which Antiochus Epiphanes waged war against. And the "pleasant land" being Israel is a reference to Jeremiah 3:19. A frustrated Antiochus Epiphanes came against Israel when his plans to take Alexandria in Egypt were halted by Rome. And the "East" was the Persian countries whose wealth Antiochus Epiphanes siphoned off to fund his battle campaigns.

 

[jamiec]

Since there are Christians on all sides of the debate, I think the “little horn” belongs in Eschatology, rather than here. If I were a Mod or suchlike, I would put it there (thus far, I think the “pushing he-goat” is Alexander the Great, & the Little Horn, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (“God manifest”)/“Epimanes” (“the madman”).

 

[Trivalee]

Daniel 8:9
King James Version

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

what version of the bible are you using that says "Out of the mouth of them"

I quoted from KJV. I made an error by excluding "And..."

 

[Trivalee]

Since there are Christians on all sides of the debate, I think the “little horn” belongs in Eschatology, rather than here. If I were a Mod or suchlike, I would put it there (thus far, I think the “pushing he-goat” is Alexander the Great, & the Little Horn, Antiochus IV Epiphanes (“God manifest”)/“Epimanes” (“the madman”).

Are you saying the two horns of chapter 7 & 8 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes/A4E?

 

[Trivalee]

This post would actually be better served in the Christian History forum. NOT eschatology, since it has all been fulfilled long ago.

The 10 horns on the fourth beast (which was the Roman empire following the 3rd beast / the Greek empire) were all emperors from Julius Ceasar forward. The "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 among those ten horns was Nero; described as "little" because he was only 17 when he became emperor. Those three horns "plucked up by the roots" before Nero were the three emperors who were assassinated: Julius Caesar, Caligula, and Claudius, all of whom were killed without having a natural-born son who succeeded them.

Nero, the "little horn", was allowed by God to wage warfare against the saints for 42 months, as scripture foretold in both Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7. This took place from late AD 64 after the fire of Rome (blamed on the Christians) until just before Nero's death in AD 68. For those 42 months, the "little horn" was allowed to "wear out the saints" by persecution.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Nero was a historical figure and his death is well documented as a suicide, search the history books. Hopefully, you will agree that Nero's death contradicts Dan 7:11 that says the horn/beast was slain and his body destroyed by fire? See Rev 19:20

The little horn of Dan 7:8 is the future Antichrist written in Rec 13:1-7. Unfortunately, Nero doesn't fit the bill.

 

[Trivalee]

As for the other, different "little horn" (or the "strong horn" in the LXX) in Daniel 8:9, this one came out of the "goat" with the great, notable horn (which was Alexander the Great), whose Macedonian kingdom was split between four of his captains at his early death. Coming out from among those four captains, the "little horn" of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9 became exceeding great, and waged war against Israel for those 2,300 days, until the temple was finally cleansed after the Maccabean victories.

The "south, the east, and the pleasant land" I believe to be Egypt, Persia, and Israel respectively. The "South" was in reference to Egypt in several places in Daniel 11, which Antiochus Epiphanes waged war against. And the "pleasant land" being Israel is a reference to Jeremiah 3:19. A frustrated Antiochus Epiphanes came against Israel when his plans to take Alexandria in Egypt were halted by Rome. And the "East" was the Persian countries whose wealth Antiochus Epiphanes siphoned off to fund his battle campaigns.

You are spot on that the LH of Dan 8 is Antiochus IV Epiphanes (A4E).

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I quoted from KJV. I made an error by excluding "And..."

what about the word "mouth"

your post
"Dan 8:9 Out of the mouth of them came a little horn..."

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Nero was a historical figure and his death is well documented as a suicide, search the history books. Hopefully, you will agree that Nero's death contradicts Dan 7:11 that says the horn/beast was slain and his body destroyed by fire? See Rev 19:20

The little horn of Dan 7:8 is the future Antichrist written in Rec 13:1-7. Unfortunately, Nero doesn't fit the bill.

Daniel 7 gives us very precise identifying features of the horn, and every single one must apply in order to make an accurate identification possible. The 13 features are as follows:

1. It arose out of the fourth beast.
2. It came up among the ten horns.
3. It came up after the ten horns had been established.
4. It was to uproot three horns.
5. It was to be greater than the others.
6. It was to be different than the others.
7. It was to have eyes like the eyes of a man and speak great words against God.
8. It was to make war on God's saints.
9. It would think to change times and laws.
10.The saints were to be handed over to it for a time and times and half a time.
11. It shall devour the whole earth.
12. It shall reign until the Ancient of Days comes.
13. Its dominion will be taken away.

Identifying the Antichrist | Prophecy of Daniel | Religious and Political System

 

[3 Resurrections]

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame.

Nero was a historical figure and his death is well documented as a suicide, search the history books. Hopefully, you will agree that Nero's death contradicts Dan 7:11 that says the horn/beast was slain and his body destroyed by fire? See Rev 19:20

Not denying the manner of Nero's death, and neither am I saying that the death of the Fourth Beast in Daniel 7:11 is describing that of Nero, since Nero was only one little horn on that entire Fourth Beast.

The entire Fourth Beast was destroyed and given to the burning flame of God's consuming fire. All of it. Daniel's Fourth Beast is the same character as the Sea Beast in Revelation 13, which included the combined features of all three former world empires of the lion, bear, and leopard (Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek respectively). At the time John was writing, the power behind all those former world empires had become subsumed into the then-current phase of the Sea Beast: that of the Roman empire.

This destruction of the Fourth Beast is nothing but a repetition of the destruction of Daniel's statue of world empires made up of different metals that were destroyed together all at one time by the single strike of the stone. After that, the different elements of the entire statue were crushed and turned simultaneously into dust carried away by the wind.

This was done at Christ's second coming return in AD 70 when He destroyed the demonic realm which had operated behind the scenes of all those world's empires of the Fourth Beast. Satan had once boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation that the power and glory of the kingdoms of this world belonged to him. The Satanic realm, which had been the power operating behind the scenes of all those former pagan empires, was turned into ashes by God's consuming fire in AD 70 (as Ezekiel 28:18-19 predicted). The eradication of the Satanic realm was the fulfillment of the symbolism of the Fourth Beast being slain, and its body being given to the burning flame of God's consuming fire.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

Please read and abide by each forum's Statement of Purpose; Statement of Purpose threads are sticky threads located at the top of the forum's page. Not all forums have a Statement of Purpose thread.​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[3 Resurrections]

Thank you, Mods...

 

[Christian Gedge]

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 8:9 Out of the mouth of them came a little horn which waxed exceeding great, towards the south and towards the east and toward the pleasant land.

Let's have a little fun with the little horns in Dan 7 and 8:

• Can you identify who they are?
• Are they the same person/entity or different personalities?
• Has the prophecy concerning been fulfilled or still in the future.
• In Dan 8:9, Can you identify the "south, the east and the pleasant land"; which kingdoms are they?

First of all these are two separate visions. We find that at the beginning of each chapter. With that in mind here is my answer to your questions.

1. Can we identify the horns? Yes, I believe so. The ‘little horn’ of chapter 7 is the Islamic caliphate that arose in the dark ages of Romes collapse.
2. Are they the same person/entity? No, chapter 8 pertains to the Greek empire. The ‘little horn’ is the Greek tyrant, Antiochus Epiphenes.
3. Fulfilled or still future? Mostly fulfilled, except the last section of chapter 7 which IMO is future.
4. South, east and pleasant land? Ptolemaic empire, Seleucid empire, and kingdom of Judah.

 

[jgr]

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 8:9 Out of the mouth of them came a little horn which waxed exceeding great, towards the south and towards the east and toward the pleasant land.

Let's have a little fun with the little horns in Dan 7 and 8:

• Can you identify who they are?
• Are they the same person/entity or different personalities?
• Has the prophecy concerning been fulfilled or still in the future.
• In Dan 8:9, Can you identify the "south, the east and the pleasant land"; which kingdoms are they?

Please support your case with scripture, but not conjecture, please. If you quote scripture, be kind to explain how it ties into your narrative. Do not just copy+paste scripture with no explanation, leaving your readers to second guess how they relate to your argument.

The little horn of Daniel 7 is the Roman papacy which arose out of the dissolution of the imperial Roman empire.

This recognition was one of the foundational doctrines of the Protestant Reformation, which God raised up and empowered to liberate His Church from the spiritual apostasy which had overwhelmed it.

 

[Berean Tim]

This post would actually be better served in the Christian History forum. NOT eschatology, since it has all been fulfilled long ago.

The 10 horns on the fourth beast (which was the Roman empire following the 3rd beast / the Greek empire) were all emperors from Julius Ceasar forward. The "little horn" of Daniel 7:8 among those ten horns was Nero; described as "little" because he was only 17 when he became emperor. Those three horns "plucked up by the roots" before Nero were the three emperors who were assassinated: Julius Caesar, Caligula, and Claudius, all of whom were killed without having a natural-born son who succeeded them.

Nero, the "little horn", was allowed by God to wage warfare against the saints for 42 months, as scripture foretold in both Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7. This took place from late AD 64 after the fire of Rome (blamed on the Christians) until just before Nero's death in AD 68. For those 42 months, the "little horn" was allowed to "wear out the saints" by persecution.

As for the other, different "little horn" (or the "strong horn" in the LXX) in Daniel 8:9, this one came out of the "goat" with the great, notable horn (which was Alexander the Great), whose Macedonian kingdom was split between four of his captains at his early death. Coming out from among those four captains, the "little horn" of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9 became exceeding great, and waged war against Israel for those 2,300 days, until the temple was finally cleansed after the Maccabean victories.

The "south, the east, and the pleasant land" I believe to be Egypt, Persia, and Israel respectively. The "South" was in reference to Egypt in several places in Daniel 11, which Antiochus Epiphanes waged war against. And the "pleasant land" being Israel is a reference to Jeremiah 3:19. A frustrated Antiochus Epiphanes came against Israel when his plans to take Alexandria in Egypt were halted by Rome. And the "East" was the Persian countries whose wealth Antiochus Epiphanes siphoned off to fund his battle campaigns.

Daniel 8: But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.”

 

[3 Resurrections]

Daniel 8: But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.”

We are told exactly when that "time of the end" came. Peter wrote to the believers in 1 Peter 4:7, saying that "the END of all things is at hand." That meant the "end of all things" had presently arrived and was unfolding by the time Peter was writing.

Peter was not writing about the end of fallen man's history on this planet, but about the "consummation of the ages" which Hebrews 9:26 said was present at that time when Christ had appeared and been crucified.

All of Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled. Every one of them. That is because the man interpreting Daniel's visions swore by the God of heaven that all of those prophecies would have been finished when the "power of the holy people is shattered". (Daniel 12:7). This "power" was not Israel's military prowess, but its "sanctuary of strength" - the temple, as Daniel 11:31 called it. When that temple was torn down to the last stone in AD 70, never to be rebuilt, the center of power for the people of Old Covenant Jerusalem was destroyed and shattered. Since this destruction of the "power" of the people of Israel was destroyed, that meant that all Daniel's prophesied wonders were "finished" by the time the temple was torn down, according to Daniel 12:7.

Any other proposed future fulfillments for any of Daniel's prophecies are null and void according to this verse.

 

[Berean Tim]

We are told exactly when that "time of the end" came. Peter wrote to the believers in 1 Peter 4:7, saying that "the END of all things is at hand." That meant the "end of all things" had presently arrived and was unfolding by the time Peter was writing.

Peter was not writing about the end of fallen man's history on this planet, but about the "consummation of the ages" which Hebrews 9:26 said was present at that time when Christ had appeared and been crucified.

All of Daniel's prophecies have been fulfilled. Every one of them. That is because the man interpreting Daniel's visions swore by the God of heaven that all of those prophecies would have been finished when the "power of the holy people is shattered". (Daniel 12:7). This "power" was not Israel's military prowess, but its "sanctuary of strength" - the temple, as Daniel 11:31 called it. When that temple was torn down to the last stone in AD 70, never to be rebuilt, the center of power for the people of Old Covenant Jerusalem was destroyed and shattered. Since this destruction of the "power" of the people of Israel was destroyed, that meant that all Daniel's prophesied wonders were "finished" by the time the temple was torn down, according to Daniel 12:7.

Any other proposed future fulfillments for any of Daniel's prophecies are null and void according to this verse.

Jesus said the warning for this was the AOD.
Matthew 24:15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
This didn't happen in 70AD

 

[Douggg]

The little horn in Daniel 7 and 8 are the same person. That person is the arch villain of the end times.

little horn>prince who shall come>the Antichrist>the revealed man of sin> the beast


Daniel 7 - little horn comes up among ten kings - of the fourth kingdom.

In prior verses, the ten kings are the ten toes on the Daniel 2 statue. In Revelation 17, the ten kings are the ten horns that are on the mortally wounded (the little horn person) but healed (the beast) head in Revelation 13 because they rule with him as him being the beast.

In Daniel 8, the little horn waxes strong (i.e. has a strong army) south and east toward the pleasant land, Israel. South and east is the way the bible says "southeast". From one of Alexander's breakup kingdoms - his army is gathered there - locationwise - Greece, the EU.

The little horn is the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27. The Jews will perceive him to be the messiah, and he will be anointed the King of Israel coming in his own name by the false prophet, making him the Antichrist.

As the Antichrist, he confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant by having the law read from the temple mount, Deuteronomy 31:9-13, for 7 years as Moses required of all future leaders of Israel.

Three years later, he magnifies himself in his heart, Daniel 8:25, goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. Daniel 8:13 the "transgression" of desolation act.

Revealing himself as the man of sin, and not the thought to be Jewish messiah after all. Ends his time as the Antichrist.

In Ezekiel 28:1-10, because he has magnified himself in heart, sits in the temple, claiming to be God - God has him killed for his act.

In Isaiah 14:15-20, he finds his soul in hell mocked. God in disdain for the person, doesn't let his soul remain in hell and returns his soul back to his body (to be cast alive into the lake of fire, at the end of the 7 years). God has disdain for the person, as the abominable branch, i.e. descended from David; Jesus the righteous branch. Because the person destroys his land and his people, Isaiah 14:19-20.

Brought back to life, the person become the beast by being possessed by the spirit of the beast (formally the garden of eden serpent - a beast) now in the bottomless pit, Revelation 17:8a.

As the beast, he blasphemes God in heaven, Revelation 13:5-6. In Daniel 7:8 a mouth speaking great things.

At the end of the 7 years, as the beast he will lead the nations of the world in a vain attempt (Psalms 2 why do the nations rage and image a vain thing) to make war on Jesus
Daniel 8:25 (he shall stand up against the Prince of prince; but he shall be broken without hand - i.e human means).
__________________________________________________

The little horn person will be a Jew in order to eventually become the Antichrist, King of Israel coming in his own name. Who's action, the transgression of desolation will end up with destruction against his land (Israel) and his people (the Jews).

He will emerge as leader of the EU, the end times version of the fourth kingdom.

Who he is? Not known at this time. Should not be long, but first the EU has to establish who those ten other leaders are (kings).

The little horn removes 3 kings by their roots. Which imo could be the current the three president structure of the EU.

as I understand it.....

president of the European council (the council is the national heads of state, i.e. like Macron). The presidency serves a 2.5 year term (two terms allowed). The presidency guides the collective heads of member states as to political direction of the EU.

The council (the heads of the 27 member states) also have one added person - the president of the European commission - presently Ursula vond der Leyen. So it is a total of 28 persons, with a president guiding them in EU politics.

president of the European commission, presently Ursula von der Leyen.

The commission is made up of 27 individuals, each a nominee from the 27 member states, for a 5 years term. The nominees have to be approved by the Parliament.

The "commission" proposes EU laws; only the commission is allowed to do so in the EU government.

Although nominated by the individual members states, the commissioners are supposed act independent from the member state that nominated them

president of the European parliament (members of the EU parliament are elected representatives who "vote" on laws handed to them from the commission ).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus said the warning for this was the AOD.
Matthew 24:15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
This didn't happen in 70AD

You are right, and I agree. Luke 21:20 interprets what that "abomination of desolation" actually was. It was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". This arrival of the "abomination of desolation" foretold by Daniel was NOT in AD 70. It was in late AD 66, when the Zealot armies and the Roman armies squared off against each other in Jerusalem. Gallus's soldiers got into Jerusalem as far as the temple. In typical Roman testudo formation, they braced themselves against the Temple wall, attempting to tunnel underneath. This battle between the Zealot armies and Gallus's Roman army in AD 66 resulted in Gallus's army withdrawing from Jerusalem and being defeated, with minimal casualties for the Zealots.

When the believers saw or heard of these armies surrounding Jerusalem (whether they were in Judea or Jerusalem), Jesus said they were to flee immediately for the mountains, which they did. The number of those who heeded Christ's warning amounted to around 1-1/4 million who fled Judea for Pella and other distant locations and didn't return for any reason until after Jerusalem and the temple was burned in AD 70. We know this approximate number survived from comparing the AD 66 Passover census record with the casualty lists dated from the start of the war in AD 66, until the fall of Jerusalem in late AD 70.