The literal bible (good title I guess)

[NightWolf]

Hello,

I am not a Christian although I have tried. I have studied the bible and at one time I was. In my younger years I was even called on by God to be a Pastor. Now on with my story.

I was in another forum discussing the current issue in the middle east. Another gentleman came in and announced that he would support a war with them and everyone on that forum knows he is a Christian. I like to debate by nature so I called him out on his want for war.

Luke 6:37-Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

My way of seeing this verse is that you just don't judge. In order to say we should go to war you have to conceive an idea of judgement to earn the merit of a result. I told him that what he was doing was wrong.

Here is my issue. I believe the bible is very literal and rather simple in terms of what it wants out of people. I believe there is to much of a case with people of picking and choosing what they want to follow. I ended up shutting down the person I was talking to when he said "You cannot judge me, God will do that when I die", I told him I was not there to judge him, told him I have read the book he is supposed to follow and proceeded to tell him that now I understand how the majority (in my eyes) of Christians think, they can ignore what the bible teaches and answer for it when they die.

So I wonder, if the bible appears to me to be very literal in the writings, why do people have such a hard time following it?

 

[rich1540]

We all sin.

 

[NightWolf]

We all sin.

I understand that.

But I cannot cheat on my wife and say "Oh well, we all sin".

The problem is that if you claim to follow God and you believe in following what is written, you don't get to pick and choose what you follow.

We cannot say we support the bombing of a people and back pedal and says "oops, I sinned". The damage is done. You broke a bunch of Gods laws. You killed (in a round about way), You judged, you didn't love your neighbor and the list goes on.

 

[rich1540]

I cannot possibly explain the rationale behind a Conservative Christian's viewpoint I'm sorry. The term Conservative Christian is an oxymoron IMO.

Oops. I just sinned. [says three hail marys]

 

[NightWolf]

I cannot possibly explain the rationale behind a Conservative Christian's viewpoint I'm sorry. The term Conservative Christian is an oxymoron IMO.

Oops. I just sinned. [says three hail marys]

That is a big problem as well.

I have had it out with people over that as well. They say they are republican because there political party aligns with their beliefs. I always go on about it being more along the lines of politics aligning them to the political beliefs.

It goes deeper then this topic though. I know a girl that was kicked from a church she belonged to for a long time because she divorced her husband who beat her. That was wrong.

This may sound funny coming from a person who is not religious. But, I get a spark inside me and I can feel the Holy Spirit working in me and wanting me to change the things I see wrong. I can feel it right now as I type this. I feel like I can run through this house with all this energy (I am 40).

I think God still wants me to be a pastor and I get that feeling. I try and try I just get stopped because I see all the bad and think it is a mountain I cannot climb. But maybe there is hope in the bible...

Philippians 4:13-I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Maybe I really need to think about my position. The Holy Spirit does push me hard.

 

[St_Worm2]

Luke 6:37-Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

My way of seeing this verse is that you just don't judge.

But is it the Lord's?

“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:24

“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:15-16a
​

​

​

The Lord has given us clear solutions for stopping adultery and/or lusting after someone we aren't married to, and also what one must do to become His disciple. Have you taken His commandments/solutions "literally" yet, or are you having "a hard time following them" ..

“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you..." Matthew 5:29

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26​

And as far as a proper exegesis is concerned, perhaps you should consider that it often takes a bit more to interpret the Bible than a cursory reading of a verse or passage allows for ..

Yours and His,
David

 

[hedrick]

I was in another forum discussing the current issue in the middle east. Another gentleman came in and announced that he would support a war with them and everyone on that forum knows he is a Christian. I like to debate by nature so I called him out on his want for war.

Luke 6:37-Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

My way of seeing this verse is that you just don't judge. In order to say we should go to war you have to conceive an idea of judgement to earn the merit of a result. I told him that what he was doing was wrong.

I think Jesus' saying was intended to prevent the typical judgementalism we see so often between people. Fighting to defend the innocent against brutal attacks isn't the kind of judgement Jesus was talking about. It doesn't even require judgements about the people we're fighting. They could be wonderful Christians destined for heaven for all we know. But they have to be stopped from the things they're doing to other people.

 

[aiki]

Hello,

I am not a Christian although I have tried. I have studied the bible and at one time I was. In my younger years I was even called on by God to be a Pastor. Now on with my story.

If the Almighty Creator of the Universe comes to dwell within you as the Bible says He does when you are "born again," you will know it and you will never be the same. There is no going back from such an encounter with God. It sounds to me, then, that you never really had such an experience with your Maker. As the apostle John explained,

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I was in another forum discussing the current issue in the middle east. Another gentleman came in and announced that he would support a war with them and everyone on that forum knows he is a Christian. I like to debate by nature so I called him out on his want for war.

Luke 6:37-Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

My way of seeing this verse is that you just don't judge. In order to say we should go to war you have to conceive an idea of judgement to earn the merit of a result. I told him that what he was doing was wrong.

I guess you don't see the inconsistency in your words. When you told this fellow that "he was doing wrong" were you not making a judgement about his thinking/conduct? Did you not judge him in just the manner you believe Scripture forbids? It seems so to me.

Here's the thing: one cannot discern between moral good and evil without making moral judgements. If you don't make moral judgements, you can't ever say one thing is good and another evil. Was Jesus unaware of this when he said what he did in the verse you supplied from the Gospel of Luke? If you read carefully, and allow other places in Scripture that address the matter of judgement to qualify what Jesus says in Luke 6:37, you will discover that there isn't actually a flat prohibition on judging others. Even Luke 6:37 doesn't actually forbid judging; it only warns that in judging others we place ourselves in a state that is susceptible to judgement, too.

Here is my issue. I believe the bible is very literal and rather simple in terms of what it wants out of people.

The Bible is sometimes literal. At other times, however, it is also figurative. I do agree with you that what God wants from us is pretty straightforward and clear in Scripture.

I believe there is too much of a case with people of picking and choosing what they want to follow. I ended up shutting down the person I was talking to when he said "You cannot judge me, God will do that when I die", I told him I was not there to judge him,

Nonetheless, you did judge him the moment you proclaimed his conduct in error.

told him I have read the book he is supposed to follow and proceeded to tell him that now I understand how the majority (in my eyes) of Christians think, they can ignore what the bible teaches and answer for it when they die.

I'm afraid you haven't anything like a reasonable basis upon which to make such a proclamation. One exchange with a single Christian cannot possibly obtain for you what you would need to reasonably assert what the majority of Christians think.

Selah.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I was in another forum discussing the current issue in the middle east. Another gentleman came in and announced that he would support a war with them and everyone on that forum knows he is a Christian. I like to debate by nature so I called him out on his want for war.

Luke 6:37-Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

My way of seeing this verse is that you just don't judge. In order to say we should go to war you have to conceive an idea of judgement to earn the merit of a result. I told him that what he was doing was wrong.

(Emphasis mine)

But have you not just 'judged' him then?

Your philosophy on judgment and your interpretation of this verse handcuffs you (and everyone else) from making any sort of criticism or negative analysis of a situation. It handcuffs you from pointing out blatant rights and wrongs. It handcuffs morality itself. It means we can't put people in jail, we can't punish children, we can't do ANYTHING to 'judge' anyone and this gives free reign to the evil while stifling the good and effectively makes 'morality' meaningless.

Morality (good and bad) depends on recognizing what is good and what is bad. Society seeks to limit the bad while protecting the good.

Whether all-out war against IS is the most moral or politically expedient solution is a matter of debate. I am of the opinion that military intervention in the Middle East by the USA would likely not help the situation as evidenced by the numerous failed interventions in Vietnam, Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, and Somalia. But it seems ludicrous that you would pull out this verse as an argument tactic. A better argument tactic would be to point out why military intervention rarely works. Throwing Bible verses at him does not encourage discourse on the subject.



I think the point of this verse is to turn the issue back upon yourself and leave you to ask the question and reflect on your own failures in self-discipline or godliness. Its a humbling recognition that we all have failures and aspects of our lives that need to be worked on.

This verse is not meant to negate the fact that evil exists in the world and must be recognized and stopped. Beheadings, rape, murder, genocide all fall into the category of evil and should be stopped by some method. Whether that method is ground troops and war offensives is a matter of debate.

Here is my issue. I believe the bible is very literal and rather simple in terms of what it wants out of people.

Noooo, that's the problem that literalists fall into. They miss out on the nuance, poetry, metaphor and complexity present in the Bible. They miss out on the nuance of translation and the effects that translation can have on the meaning of the text. They miss out on the historical context of certain verses. They miss out on the scholarship.

The Bible is not 'always' literal and it is certainly not 'simple'.

I believe there is to much of a case with people of picking and choosing what they want to follow.

Everyone picks and chooses. I wish mainstream Christianity would just own up to this fact already. Its true. We can't help it.

I ended up shutting down the person I was talking to when he said "You cannot judge me, God will do that when I die", I told him I was not there to judge him, told him I have read the book he is supposed to follow and proceeded to tell him that now I understand how the majority (in my eyes) of Christians think, they can ignore what the bible teaches and answer for it when they die.

Judgment lies in the eye of the beholder. You think you have not judged him…but you did because you told him he was wrong in the same way that he was saying beheadings and rape were wrong.

So I wonder, if the bible appears to me to be very literal in the writings, why do people have such a hard time following it?

Why aren't you following it?

 

[NightWolf]

But is it the Lord's?

“Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” John 7:24

“Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:15-16a
​

​

​

The Lord has given us clear solutions for stopping adultery and/or lusting after someone we aren't married to, and also what one must do to become His disciple. Have you taken His commandments/solutions "literally" yet, or are you having "a hard time following them" ..

“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you..." Matthew 5:29

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:26​

And as far as a proper exegesis is concerned, perhaps you should consider that it often takes a bit more to interpret the Bible than a cursory reading of a verse or passage allows for ..

Yours and His,
David

But I don not profess to be a Christian, so how can I possibly be breaking any laws?

The "hate" in Luke 14:26 is just simply saying to put the Lord before anyone else. That is the foundation of the Christian faith and I understand that.

 

[NightWolf]

If the Almighty Creator of the Universe comes to dwell within you as the Bible says He does when you are "born again," you will know it and you will never be the same. There is no going back from such an encounter with God. It sounds to me, then, that you never really had such an experience with your Maker. As the apostle John explained,

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There was a time in my life when I was a very heavy drinker as well as having very bad thoughts and a bad mouth to boot. I was pulled to the bible and followed it very closely. I stopped drinking, the bad mouth, and a host of other things with God working in me. I also had the dream about what God wanted from me.

These experiences were real and for me to think otherwise is foolish. God gives us free will and that is where my human nature kicked in.

I guess you don't see the inconsistency in your words. When you told this fellow that "he was doing wrong" were you not making a judgement about his thinking/conduct? Did you not judge him in just the manner you believe Scripture forbids? It seems so to me.

I am not tied to a religion, I feel I can use his book of law to point out his wrongs. I am not tied to any moral code.

Here's the thing: one cannot discern between moral good and evil without making moral judgements. If you don't make moral judgements, you can't ever say one thing is good and another evil. Was Jesus unaware of this when he said what he did in the verse you supplied from the Gospel of Luke? If you read carefully, and allow other places in Scripture that address the matter of judgement to qualify what Jesus says in Luke 6:37, you will discover that there isn't actually a flat prohibition on judging others. Even Luke 6:37 doesn't actually forbid judging; it only warns that in judging others we place ourselves in a state that is susceptible to judgement, too.

That is a fair point.

The Bible is sometimes literal. At other times, however, it is also figurative. I do agree with you that what God wants from us is pretty straightforward and clear in Scripture.

Nonetheless, you did judge him the moment you proclaimed his conduct in error.

I'm afraid you haven't anything like a reasonable basis upon which to make such a proclamation. One exchange with a single Christian cannot possibly obtain for you what you would need to reasonably assert what the majority of Christians think.

Selah.

I did judge him, that is correct. But I am not bound by moral code.

I believe it is reasonable. I think that God teaches us to put faith in Him and not in anything else. When as Christians you say "we need war", you are saying you have removed faith in God and put the problem on man to solve. That has it own moral problems.

 

[NightWolf]

(Emphasis mine)

But have you not just 'judged' him then?

I think I did, but again, I do not follow religion.

But, I think it may be correct to think that God judged him. I used the word of God to point out the error in his thinking. At that point didn't God judge him?

Rules are written to be followed. If someone murders do we not call him a murderer? The same rule apples here.

Your philosophy on judgment and your interpretation of this verse handcuffs you (and everyone else) from making any sort of criticism or negative analysis of a situation. It handcuffs you from pointing out blatant rights and wrongs. It handcuffs morality itself. It means we can't put people in jail, we can't punish children, we can't do ANYTHING to 'judge' anyone and this gives free reign to the evil while stifling the good and effectively makes 'morality' meaningless.

But does it? If we all shrived to live by the word of God, wouldn't the bible prescribe my way of thinking? Would the bible not tell me I should pray for change?

I would think it is OK to see the wrongs in the world. I would think it is up to us to pray and ask for divine intervention and as God to judge and act accordingly.

Morality (good and bad) depends on recognizing what is good and what is bad. Society seeks to limit the bad while protecting the good.

I agree with this.

Whether all-out war against IS is the most moral or politically expedient solution is a matter of debate. I am of the opinion that military intervention in the Middle East by the USA would likely not help the situation as evidenced by the numerous failed interventions in Vietnam, Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, and Somalia. But it seems ludicrous that you would pull out this verse as an argument tactic. A better argument tactic would be to point out why military intervention rarely works. Throwing Bible verses at him does not encourage discourse on the subject.

I agree with this as well. As I have said many times, you cannot make the world love you.

I think the point of this verse is to turn the issue back upon yourself and leave you to ask the question and reflect on your own failures in self-discipline or godliness. Its a humbling recognition that we all have failures and aspects of our lives that need to be worked on.

Very good point. Self reflection is always a good thing and allows us to be the best we can be.

This verse is not meant to negate the fact that evil exists in the world and must be recognized and stopped. Beheadings, rape, murder, genocide all fall into the category of evil and should be stopped by some method. Whether that method is ground troops and war offensives is a matter of debate.

I believe the bible teaches us to put our faith in God. We should be praying about the problems in the world. I told that guy this. I said to him "You should not be putting your faith in a hammer, you should be putting your faith in God".

Noooo, that's the problem that literalists fall into. They miss out on the nuance, poetry, metaphor and complexity present in the Bible. They miss out on the nuance of translation and the effects that translation can have on the meaning of the text. They miss out on the historical context of certain verses. They miss out on the scholarship.

The Bible is not 'always' literal and it is certainly not 'simple'.

That is a very good point.

Everyone picks and chooses. I wish mainstream Christianity would just own up to this fact already. Its true. We can't help it.

It's never easy to point out the error in our ways. I believe you are right though.

Judgment lies in the eye of the beholder. You think you have not judged him…but you did because you told him he was wrong in the same way that he was saying beheadings and rape were wrong.



Why aren't you following it?

I don't claim to follow it.

 

[aiki]

There was a time in my life when I was a very heavy drinker as well as having very bad thoughts and a bad mouth to boot. I was pulled to the bible and followed it very closely. I stopped drinking, the bad mouth, and a host of other things with God working in me. I also had the dream about what God wanted from me.

These experiences were real and for me to think otherwise is foolish. God gives us free will and that is where my human nature kicked in.

None of what you describe above is what God says in His Word makes a person a genuine follower of Christ, a born-again child of God. It sounds from what you've described like you had a religious experience but not a spiritually regenerative one. There's a very big difference.

I am not tied to a religion, I feel I can use his book of law to point out his wrongs. I am not tied to any moral code.

That's...convenient. So, you get to criticize others but escape such criticism yourself by disavowing allegiance to any moral code? Very convenient. I'm not convinced, though, that you are as beyond criticism as you may think. Is there nothing that you view as truly morally right or wrong? Would you, for example, applaud the torture of a baby for fun? Or would you condemn such a thing and act to prevent it?

As for your use of the Bible to point out a Christian's failing, well, as I explained, you mishandled the Bible in your attempt to do so. Maybe before you level criticism of this sort at others you should better understand the source of their moral code. Just a thought.

I did judge him, that is correct. But I am not bound by moral code.

I don't understand what you mean. Surely you aren't suggesting that you are free to murder, rape and pillage as you like? Surely you don't think you can be a backstabbing coward with impunity? Do you think you can rob a bank without finding yourself in trouble with the law? It seems to me very evident that we are all bound in some way by moral law, whether it be imposed by society, or by our own conscience, or some religious source. But if this is true, then your means of escape from moral criticism collapses.

I think that God teaches us to put faith in Him and not in anything else.

Ultimately, yes. But He is not averse to us putting faith in others, too.

When as Christians you say "we need war", you are saying you have removed faith in God and put the problem on man to solve. That has it own moral problems.

Well, if we need war to prevent atrocity and defend truth, freedom and basic human rights, Christians are obliged to do so. The Israelites fought frequently against the wicked pagan nations around them. They didn't just sit about thinking, "I have no role to play in the defense of myself and my nation. I shall just wait for God to strike down this pagan warrior who is slaughtering my family." Jesus himself went about whipping the money-changers till they fled the synagogue. He didn't sit idle waiting for divine lightning from heaven to clear the place out. Jesus told his disciples to obtain swords (Luke 22:36). Was he suggesting, in giving this command, that the disciples set aside faith in God? I think not. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that war necessarily precludes faith in God. Scripture does not appear to bear this out.

Selah.

 

[ChesterKhan]

Luke 6:37-Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

My way of seeing this verse is that you just don't judge. In order to say we should go to war you have to conceive an idea of judgement to earn the merit of a result. I told him that what he was doing was wrong.

Look at the verse in context. The previous verses speak of us blessing those who curse us, giving the other cheek, and the rest.

Judge not, it could easily be said, is a call not to damn a person. But Jesus is not saying we cannot say something someone is doing is wrong. But rather, we must forgive them, "for they know not what they do".

Nevertheless, the tension remains: we cannot damn them, yet their actions are still damnable.

In the Catholic Church, excommunication is not a censure, but a warning. Like the prophets of old, who warned the Israelites that they were engaged in idolatry, and they would suffer for it, the Church will not allow someone to the sacraments who persists in doing grave evil. This is why she anathematises wrong doctrine and those who practise it after having been a practising Catholic - because it is wrong, and if they will not accept that, they cannot possibly accept the authority of Christ's Church. Now, if they do get to Heaven, it will be by God's intervention. But they will, at some point, have to accept the Catholic Church as God's Church. Maybe not in this life. But the Church here on Earth can only judge here and now; God alone can judge on the final state of a soul.

But as to that passage you cited, in context, we must be forgiving of a person. But Christ says, and St. John says, "If you love Me, you will keep my commandments", and "if we say we do not sin, we are deceived". And Jesus qualifies our righteousness before Him and His Father at many places.

I agree with you. The Bible is fairly literal about what you are to believe (when Christ asks you to believe something). So do not forget that judgement has many meanings. And the condemnation, the damning, that belongs to God. But the discernment, the correction, this is something even we can do, stupid as we are. For Christ taught us what is right and what is not.

So I wonder, if the bible appears to me to be very literal in the writings, why do people have such a hard time following it?

We're stupid. Lazy. And while God's word is simple, it is not easy.

An English author from the 1900s, G.K. Chesterton, once said this: "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried." And this is true. As St. Paul duly notes: "All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It's a lofty goal to "be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect."

And mankind has many obstacles - other human beings, their own emotions, chemicals swirling in their bodies, their past sins, and many other things. So pardon us if we do give ourselves and other Christians some latitude. While the Catholic Church does anathematise for disobedience, it must be obvious, serious, and obstinate disobedience. She is very merciful otherwise. And you can always come back. It's up to you. We'll always take you back. Even if you weren't a Catholic before!

 

[NightWolf]

None of what you describe above is what God says in His Word makes a person a genuine follower of Christ, a born-again child of God. It sounds from what you've described like you had a religious experience but not a spiritually regenerative one. There's a very big difference.

Well thanks for that.

That has been the only thing I have held on to my whole life to give me faith the God is real. So I guess that was not real, the "calling" he presented (at least I thought) was not real. So the only thing left for me to do is become a atheist. Aside from those moments I have nothing.

So I guess my life long journey is now solved. I suppose I should thank you, being 40 and lost is not easy. Now I am found.

That's...convenient. So, you get to criticize others but escape such criticism yourself by disavowing allegiance to any moral code? Very convenient. I'm not convinced, though, that you are as beyond criticism as you may think. Is there nothing that you view as truly morally right or wrong? Would you, for example, applaud the torture of a baby for fun? Or would you condemn such a thing and act to prevent it?

Of course I am bound by right and wrongs. But my right and wrongs are based on my values more then a prescribed way of thinking.

As for your use of the Bible to point out a Christian's failing, well, as I explained, you mishandled the Bible in your attempt to do so. Maybe before you level criticism of this sort at others you should better understand the source of their moral code. Just a thought.

Point well taken and it will not happen again.

I don't understand what you mean. Surely you aren't suggesting that you are free to murder, rape and pillage as you like? Surely you don't think you can be a backstabbing coward with impunity? Do you think you can rob a bank without finding yourself in trouble with the law? It seems to me very evident that we are all bound in some way by moral law, whether it be imposed by society, or by our own conscience, or some religious source. But if this is true, then your means of escape from moral criticism collapses.

I understand what is right and what is wrong. Of course murder is wrong. The point I was trying to make is if you profess to be Christian, them you are bound to that and there is nothing wrong with holding people accountable for that.

Well, if we need war to prevent atrocity and defend truth, freedom and basic human rights, Christians are obliged to do so. The Israelites fought frequently against the wicked pagan nations around them. They didn't just sit about thinking, "I have no role to play in the defense of myself and my nation. I shall just wait for God to strike down this pagan warrior who is slaughtering my family." Jesus himself went about whipping the money-changers till they fled the synagogue. He didn't sit idle waiting for divine lightning from heaven to clear the place out. Jesus told his disciples to obtain swords (Luke 22:36). Was he suggesting, in giving this command, that the disciples set aside faith in God? I think not. It is a false dichotomy to suggest that war necessarily precludes faith in God. Scripture does not appear to bear this out.

Selah.

Thou shall not kill is pretty straight forward.


Thanks for the help guys. I now completely understand my way.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I think I did, but again, I do not follow religion.

So you hold those that follow a religion to a higher standard than you hold to yourself?

That's weird.

But, I think it may be correct to think that God judged him. I used the word of God to point out the error in his thinking. At that point didn't God judge him?

Rules are written to be followed. If someone murders do we not call him a murderer? The same rule apples here.

I don't presume to know who God has judged and not judged…ironically I think that's kinda the point of the verse that you quoted.

But does it? If we all shrived to live by the word of God, wouldn't the bible prescribe my way of thinking? Would the bible not tell me I should pray for change?

I would think it is OK to see the wrongs in the world. I would think it is up to us to pray and ask for divine intervention and as God to judge and act accordingly.

Do you think the 'Christian solution' to every problem is to just pray about it?

I've lost track of what this has to do with my original comment about morality. If we collectively do not judge what is bad and what is good, then morality does not exist to us.

I believe the bible teaches us to put our faith in God. We should be praying about the problems in the world. I told that guy this. I said to him "You should not be putting your faith in a hammer, you should be putting your faith in God".

Fair enough. Prayer enough is not alone though. There's the classic story of the man stranded on a desert island. He prays to God to save him. A cruise ship comes by the island and offers to pick him up and the man says, "No, I am waiting for God to save me." A second ship passes by the island and again the man refuses by saying, "No, I am praying that God will save me." By now, the man is parched and dying and a third sailboat comes and he repeats, "No, I won't let you take me, I am waiting and praying for God to save me." Finally the man dies and goes to heaven and cries to God, "Lord, why did you not save me?" God replies, "Buddy, I sent you THREE boats to a deserted island. What more could you want?"

The point of the story is that we have to prayer but we also have to act. We can't just sit around praying because God works through us and through the world around us.

ISIS must be stopped. They do evil things. They are twisted, deluded and lost. We can't just sit around and pray that God will save us. We need to act via dialogue or education or aid or…something.

I don't claim to follow it.

But why? You seem to hold Christians to a higher standard than you yourself adhere to. Why would you do that? Why would you not adhere to the standard which you perceive to be higher?

 

[aiki]

None of what you describe above is what God says in His Word makes a person a genuine follower of Christ, a born-again child of God. It sounds from what you've described like you had a religious experience but not a spiritually regenerative one. There's a very big difference.
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Well thanks for that.

That has been the only thing I have held on to my whole life to give me faith the God is real. So I guess that was not real, the "calling" he presented (at least I thought) was not real. So the only thing left for me to do is become a atheist. Aside from those moments I have nothing.

So I guess my life long journey is now solved. I suppose I should thank you, being 40 and lost is not easy. Now I am found.

Well, if my comments are all that it takes to move you into atheism, I think you were nearly there already. Really, you made it clear in your OP that you had abandoned faith in God, so why this attempt to make it seem like I pushed you to do so? I don't think I ought to take the blame for your choices.

If you are mistaken about what your experience of God was, if it was a counterfeit of the real thing, why would you want to be left thinking it was the real deal? Especially if there is a much deeper, much better experience of God that you could have, why would you want to hold to a lesser one?

Of course I am bound by right and wrongs. But my right and wrongs are based on my values more then a prescribed way of thinking.

And from what are your values derived? Your own personal preferences?

I understand what is right and what is wrong. Of course murder is wrong.

Why "of course" it is wrong? Are you saying the moral duty not to murder is true for everybody even if they think it is not?

The point I was trying to make is if you profess to be Christian, them you are bound to that and there is nothing wrong with holding people accountable for that.

I agree.

Selah.

 

[ChesterKhan]

To the OP: So you hold yourself accountable to your own standard?

Well, what happens when you change your standard? Of what value is a goalpost if you're the only one in charge of it, and it's movable?

I don't mean that the OP is thinking of murder or rape right now, and I reasonably hope he never will. But, Wolf, you would not the first person who once said, "I would never do such a thing" who later ended up doing it.

So if your morality changes, is it my obligation to support your convictions, my own, or something entirely outside of relative convictions - that is, an objective law?

To aiki: I think he was being sarcastic.

 

[NightWolf]

So you hold those that follow a religion to a higher standard than you hold to yourself?

That's weird.

Interesting observation, I must say I never thought about it like that.

I don't presume to know who God has judged and not judged…ironically I think that's kinda the point of the verse that you quoted.

But I do know God has given us rules to live by. If you profess to live by those rules and choose not to follow them, is pointing that fact out wrong? I mean the justice system looks up codes every day doing the same thing.

Do you think the 'Christian solution' to every problem is to just pray about it?

I believe trying to understand what God has said (the Word) and praying for guidance is very much what God has prescribed.

I've lost track of what this has to do with my original comment about morality. If we collectively do not judge what is bad and what is good, then morality does not exist to us.

I am under the impression that we already know what is good and bad. I don't believe we have to judge a murderer to know what he or she is. That is in us and things we should know.

To outwardly judge is to go against what the bible teaches. Sure, form inwardly opinion, sure, form values based on life experiences. I however think that we should not judge. Sure we are human and will do it in our heads, we however do not have to pressure people with our values.

Fair enough. Prayer enough is not alone though. There's the classic story of the man stranded on a desert island. He prays to God to save him. A cruise ship comes by the island and offers to pick him up and the man says, "No, I am waiting for God to save me." A second ship passes by the island and again the man refuses by saying, "No, I am praying that God will save me." By now, the man is parched and dying and a third sailboat comes and he repeats, "No, I won't let you take me, I am waiting and praying for God to save me." Finally the man dies and goes to heaven and cries to God, "Lord, why did you not save me?" God replies, "Buddy, I sent you THREE boats to a deserted island. What more could you want?"

Everything in life happens for a reason, I believe this. If I was on that island and prayed to God to be saved, I would know God sent the boat. I would give Him the praise he deserved as I boarded.

The point of the story is that we have to prayer but we also have to act. We can't just sit around praying because God works through us and through the world around us.

Very true and I agree. God very much works in mysterious ways.

ISIS must be stopped. They do evil things. They are twisted, deluded and lost. We can't just sit around and pray that God will save us. We need to act via dialogue or education or aid or…something.

I believe the same. The problem however arises when I know what the perpetual ball starts rolling. The war on terror is one we can never win. Prayer in this instance is a good thing I believe.

But why? You seem to hold Christians to a higher standard than you yourself adhere to. Why would you do that? Why would you not adhere to the standard which you perceive to be higher?

That is a very good point and something I am thinking about.

 

[NightWolf]

Well, if my comments are all that it takes to move you into atheism, I think you were nearly there already. Really, you made it clear in your OP that you had abandoned faith in God, so why this attempt to make it seem like I pushed you to do so? I don't think I ought to take the blame for your choices.

If you are mistaken about what your experience of God was, if it was a counterfeit of the real thing, why would you want to be left thinking it was the real deal? Especially if there is a much deeper, much better of experience of God that you could have, why would you want to hold to a lesser one?

Atheism is not something I could ever prescribe to, that is not me.

I do really feel my calling. I feel conviction from the Holy Spirit and it works hard in me. I do believe that what I have experienced is very real now as well as then.

I actually came here looking for answers. I hoped you guys would flip a "switch" inside me that would make me see the error of my ways. I am starting to see that now.

And from what are your values derived? Your own personal preferences?

My life experiences. Of course having been through the bible many times it plays a part. And of course I believe that if the whole world would live by the bible, the world would be a much better place to live.

Why "of course" it is wrong? Are you saying the moral duty not to murder is true for everybody even if they think it is not?

I agree.

Selah.

I believe no one should murder.