The Line Between Saving and Condemning

[FaithLikeARock]

You would think two polar opposites would have a more obvious difference but apparently they don't, since it's come to my attention that people here can't seem to find the difference. Either side always assume the other side is condemning them while they're trying to save them. Well that makes a ton of sense don't it? You can't do both simultaneously.

So because no one can recognize this line, it makes it rather hard to figure out when we've crossed it. So to the best of my ability, I'm going to try to find it. This goes to both sides. I openly admit I have nothing wrong with homosexuality. But homosexuals whining about harassment when it's obviously NOT harassment pinches the nerve just as much as the other way around.

First of all: GOLDEN RULE. "Do unto others" etc. etc. Meaning, how would you feel if someone walked up and started calling you or even your characteristics foul, sinful, etc. We all feel horrible. And guilt is not your job. Christians are not supposed to make other Christians feel guilty. They're just supposed to point out what they disapprove of (remember, it's take two people and confront, not bash in a general manner everyone who fits the description).

Secondly: We were warned. Both by God and by society. We will be persecuted. So don't whine about how it's not fair when someone does it. Since this is a peaceful forum, you can report them, but after that drop it. Don't talk about how you're gay and made fun of or Christian and everyone is out to get you. Using things as excuses (especially when you're actually in the wrong), doesn't solve anything. It's like in middle school if you're picked on for being a tattle tale and want them to stop so you tattle on them - yeah, that'll help lots. /personal experience.

Third: Don't throw the first stone. A lot of the time, you have a great point, but you ruin it with a holier-than-thou attitude. To make my point clear: SAYING YOU'RE NOT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE (to be explained in number four). If you're gay and act like all people who disagree with homosexuality are obviously bigoted, you're not any better, since people are entitled to their opinions. This also falls under the "no personal attacks" thing.

Fourth: SAYING YOU'RE NOT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. Learn to take criticism, please. If you come off as too harsh and people point it out you shouldn't go "WELL YOU'RE ONLY SAYING THAT BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE". Maybe they do, but for one that statement will not help. Second if even one person points out something you should always reexamine your behavior/words but it could be true. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it better.

It seems to me, the main problem with the Homosexual verses What the Bible Says Wars, is no one is actually listening. I realize, it's debate. What else is new? But here, it's just horrible. And I am guilty too. When you have your mind set, it's set. But if you're going to come to debate, can't we be civilized. I mean, I can count the number of completely polite (as in I've never seen them explode on someone) on one hand, me not included as I can't say I've never done it on CF.

Just a reminder your guys: there are forums out there for counseling "healed" homosexuals. This is not it. The people here don't want you to pray for them and don't want to be changed because they believe they're normal. This is just debate and you should treat it as such. The characteristics of the other person do not matter. On the other side, not all people who disagree with you are bigoted zealots. O MY SHOCK. It's true. There are plenty of wonderful people who believe homosexuality is a sin but you could never tell the difference unless they told you.

Figured I'd let my thoughts be known.

 

[texastig]

You would think two polar opposites would have a more obvious difference but apparently they don't, since it's come to my attention that people here can't seem to find the difference. Either side always assume the other side is condemning them while they're trying to save them. Well that makes a ton of sense don't it? You can't do both simultaneously.

So because no one can recognize this line, it makes it rather hard to figure out when we've crossed it. So to the best of my ability, I'm going to try to find it. This goes to both sides. I openly admit I have nothing wrong with homosexuality. But homosexuals whining about harassment when it's obviously NOT harassment pinches the nerve just as much as the other way around.

First of all: GOLDEN RULE. "Do unto others" etc. etc. Meaning, how would you feel if someone walked up and started calling you or even your characteristics foul, sinful, etc. We all feel horrible. And guilt is not your job. Christians are not supposed to make other Christians feel guilty. They're just supposed to point out what they disapprove of (remember, it's take two people and confront, not bash in a general manner everyone who fits the description).

Secondly: We were warned. Both by God and by society. We will be persecuted. So don't whine about how it's not fair when someone does it. Since this is a peaceful forum, you can report them, but after that drop it. Don't talk about how you're gay and made fun of or Christian and everyone is out to get you. Using things as excuses (especially when you're actually in the wrong), doesn't solve anything. It's like in middle school if you're picked on for being a tattle tale and want them to stop so you tattle on them - yeah, that'll help lots. /personal experience.

Third: Don't throw the first stone. A lot of the time, you have a great point, but you ruin it with a holier-than-thou attitude. To make my point clear: SAYING YOU'RE NOT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE (to be explained in number four). If you're gay and act like all people who disagree with homosexuality are obviously bigoted, you're not any better, since people are entitled to their opinions. This also falls under the "no personal attacks" thing.

Fourth: SAYING YOU'RE NOT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. Learn to take criticism, please. If you come off as too harsh and people point it out you shouldn't go "WELL YOU'RE ONLY SAYING THAT BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE". Maybe they do, but for one that statement will not help. Second if even one person points out something you should always reexamine your behavior/words but it could be true. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it better.

It seems to me, the main problem with the Homosexual verses What the Bible Says Wars, is no one is actually listening. I realize, it's debate. What else is new? But here, it's just horrible. And I am guilty too. When you have your mind set, it's set. But if you're going to come to debate, can't we be civilized. I mean, I can count the number of completely polite (as in I've never seen them explode on someone) on one hand, me not included as I can't say I've never done it on CF.

Just a reminder your guys: there are forums out there for counseling "healed" homosexuals. This is not it. The people here don't want you to pray for them and don't want to be changed because they believe they're normal. This is just debate and you should treat it as such. The characteristics of the other person do not matter. On the other side, not all people who disagree with you are bigoted zealots. O MY SHOCK. It's true. There are plenty of wonderful people who believe homosexuality is a sin but you could never tell the difference unless they told you.

Figured I'd let my thoughts be known.

FLAR (if I may call you that?), thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that we should treat others as we want to be treated.
I see myself trying to love homosexuals by telling them that it is a life of disaster which the CDC today acknowledged. They said homosexual and bisexual men accounted for 64 percent of syphilis cases in 2007.
It's just like how I warn my kids. I tell them don't put your hand on the fire because I don't want them to get hurt. They can choose to listen and obey and not get hurt or not listen and don't obey and get hurt.
Thank you again for your thoughts.
Thanks,
TT

 

[KCKID]

And they are very well-put thoughts too, FaithLikeARock.

I will be back later (after work) to make further comment if need be.

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

 

[KCKID]

FLAR (if I may call you that?), thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that we should treat others as we want to be treated.
I see myself trying to love homosexuals by telling them that it is a life of disaster which the CDC today acknowledged. They said homosexual and bisexual men accounted for 64 percent of syphilis cases in 2007.
It's just like how I warn my kids. I tell them don't put your hand on the fire because I don't want them to get hurt. They can choose to listen and obey and not get hurt or not listen and don't obey and get hurt.
Thank you again for your thoughts.
Thanks,
TT

Just a 'quickie' before I leave for work. The problem is, texastig, is that you don't seem to know what homosexuality is. Therefore, I don't see how you can speak about the issue. I've tried to pin you down on several threads (so far ignored by you) asking that you explain what YOU perceive homosexuality to be.

Sorry if I've derailed the thread.

 

[texastig]

Just a 'quickie' before I leave for work. The problem is, texastig, is that you don't seem to know what homosexuality is. Therefore, I don't see how you can speak about the issue. I've tried to pin you down on several threads (so far ignored by you) asking that you explain what YOU perceive homosexuality to be.

Sorry if I've derailed the thread.

You were kind of very forceful/hard and I tend not to like that. That's why I've been ignoring your questions. Until I see different behavior I won't be answering your questions. I won't be replying to your reply to this either.
Thanks,
TT

 

[BreadAlone]

All too often Conservative Christians are up in arms leading the crusade against homosexuality, but then where are they when the unmarried (heterosexual) couple moves in together?

You're not going to let your light shine by trying to shove something they don't even believe in down their throats. You soften unbelieving hearts with the love and gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord. We've lost that love in "Christianity" today.

Now, when someone claims to be a Christian and yet is living in homosexual sin, that's a different matter.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

FLAR (if I may call you that?), thank you for your thoughts. I do agree that we should treat others as we want to be treated.
I see myself trying to love homosexuals by telling them that it is a life of disaster which the CDC today acknowledged. They said homosexual and bisexual men accounted for 64 percent of syphilis cases in 2007.
It's just like how I warn my kids. I tell them don't put your hand on the fire because I don't want them to get hurt. They can choose to listen and obey and not get hurt or not listen and don't obey and get hurt.
Thank you again for your thoughts.
Thanks,
TT

FLAR, heehee.

Well let me put it this way. How do you feel when I compare Christianity to the Crusades and call it a dangerous cult? Or to anything concerning so-called Christians harming other Christians. They may be hard facts but I'm sure you'd be quick to say "But that's different!" Likewise, using what may be facts to condemn an entire people is hurtful. Telling them you disapprove and giving them reasons is one thing. But pushing every little fact about every little thing is very pushy and it's a scare tactic. And personally, I find so many things wrong with scare tactics, I won't go into it. That's another debate for another day.

You may tell your children not to touch a fire, but do you go into every little detail about what will happen? No. Because you may end up frightening them to death, and I've never seen someone who wasn't loopy who enjoyed scaring children. So why should scaring those who are homosexuals with "this and this and this MIGHT happen" work? Telling them sure, though that's basic sex ed right there. But throwing it at them like they're to blame is not. They're not debatable, and to me, it seems like you're just posting them as evidence that homosexuality is unnatural. You can believe that but using general evidence has never turned out well for society. I would give examples but I would be proving Godwin's Law.

 

[FaithLikeARock]

You were kind of very forceful/hard and I tend not to like that. That's why I've been ignoring your questions. Until I see different behavior I won't be answering your questions. I won't be replying to your reply to this either.
Thanks,
TT

You should reply though. Remember? Ignoring the problem doesn't resolve it. You should listen to his words and he should listen to yours. That's the biggest problem with debate threads is everyone is convinced that they're the best and know the most and don't listen to help their communication skills.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

You were kind of very forceful/hard and I tend not to like that. That's why I've been ignoring your questions. Until I see different behavior I won't be answering your questions. I won't be replying to your reply to this either.
Thanks,
TT

Tig, Not to be forceful or hard, but you telling others that they are, is sort of like calling the kettle black. Your comments relating teaching your children and homosexuals was patronizing and not subtly so.

 

[KCKID]

You were kind of very forceful/hard and I tend not to like that. That's why I've been ignoring your questions. Until I see different behavior I won't be answering your questions. I won't be replying to your reply to this either.
Thanks,
TT

I apologize if you feel that I came across as being rude and insensitive to you, texastig. I really have no desire to go out of my way to alienate anyone on this forum. I do, however, share experiences with others that may have been abused in the past and I feel that I've therefore earned the right to say to them ..."It happened, it's over, get over it, and move on!" That's MY bedside manner to anyone who tends to wallow in self-pity. I'm not necessarily saying that this is you but it might be.

But, I'm sorry if I offended you. The deal is, however, that - according to at least one of your posts - you referred to homosexuals as being basically deviants and perverts. Those are my words but they are close enough to your description of them. You seem to lay the blame for what happened to you on homosexuality per se. Such a view is preposterous as well as untrue.

You may well ignore this post. That's up to you. At least I've gotten what I had to say on screen. However, if I'm big enough to apologize to you then perhaps you should be big enough to apologize to those on this forum that you have branded in the way that you have. Okay?

 

[Phinehas2]

I agree with the OP. As far as posters like savedandhappy1 and myself and what we call oursleves say Biblical Christians, we all have to answer to Jesus Christ on the day of judgement. So we dont have to be so concerned about what others think, thats their choice.

Tig, Not to be forceful or hard, but you telling others that they are, is sort of like calling the kettle black. Your comments relating teaching your children and homosexuals was patronizing and not subtly so

I think the problem some views are found to be objectionable.

 

[MrAnteater]

I agree with the OP. As far as posters like savedandhappy1 and myself and what we call oursleves say Biblical Christians, we all have to answer to Jesus Christ on the day of judgement. So we dont have to be so concerned about what others think, thats their choice.

I think the problem some views are found to be objectionable.

When others claim that Christianity does not view homosexuality as a sin it's more than just expressing an opinion. It's spreading mis-information about the faith and needs to be corrected.

 

[KCKID]

When others claim that Christianity does not view homosexuality as a sin it's more than just expressing an opinion. It's spreading mis-information about the faith and needs to be corrected.

For the millionth time ...the word 'homosexual' was NOT in the original manuscripts. It is a MODERN word that has replaced the word 'sodomy'.

When are you folks going to catch on that one's sexual orientation is NOT mentioned in the Bible?

For crying out loud ...get your facts right!

 

[FaithLikeARock]

When others claim that Christianity does not view homosexuality as a sin it's more than just expressing an opinion. It's spreading mis-information about the faith and needs to be corrected.

Not true. The Bible can be interpreted in hundreds of ways. Saying a certain person is spreading "misinformation" because they interpret it a certain way is just as misinformed as ever. No human can say their interpretation is correct because no one can go back and ask the writers and unfortunately, I've never met someone whose faith is strong enough to understand God's take. It's just a matter of hoping and praying that your attempt to understand God's word and to perform God's will is enough.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Are they in these forums, justifying their sinful lifestyles? Are they parading down
the street performing lascivious acts? Are they preaching their sinful lifestyles to
in public schools jamming their reprobate ways down the throats of the children?

No, they are hiding their sin not flaunting their sin. They know it is sin.
Same with adulterers. They are not demanding that the Bible verses that
apply to them are removed and the Church turn a blind eye and call what is
evil good to please them. They are not having Adulterous Pride Day or Fornicators Pride Day.....

See the difference?

Anyone who comes in these forums and says they are a Christian and proceeds to promote and/or teach a sinful lifestyle, as they have in the past and will continue on to the future, will surely be addressed and met with opposition. It isn't just teh gaze. It just so happens this site has a dedicated forum to the topic.

All too often Conservative Christians are up in arms leading the crusade against homosexuality, but then where are they when the unmarried (heterosexual) couple moves in together?

You're not going to let your light shine by trying to shove something they don't even believe in down their throats. You soften unbelieving hearts with the love and gospel of Christ Jesus our Lord. We've lost that love in "Christianity" today.

Now, when someone claims to be a Christian and yet is living in homosexual sin, that's a different matter.

 

[IamRedeemed]

The same people that cry when we use "Old English" complain when modern english
terms are used. There is no such thing as "sexual orientation".
There is a such thing as "sinful orientation". We are all born in sinful orientation.
We're all born sinners. We all have different temptations.
Sometimes temptations weren't ours to begin with but became ours when someone defiled
our minds or bodies with their temptations or the lusts of their flesh, as is the
case with much sexual sin overall, not just teh gaze.
Some people are oriented to rape and murder....classifying it as an orientation
doesn't make it any less a sin. It is just a new package, but an old sin.

But anyway, as you said the word was "sodomy"
and what is sodomy?

sod·om·y (sŏd'ə-m&#275
n. Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal,
especially anal intercourse or bestiality.

sod·om·y

/ˈsɒd

ə

mi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sod-uh-mee]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
1.anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
2.copulation with a member of the same sex.



So, what is the problem?

For the millionth time ...the word 'homosexual' was NOT in the original manuscripts. It is a MODERN word that has replaced the word 'sodomy'.

When are you folks going to catch on that one's sexual orientation is NOT mentioned in the Bible?

For crying out loud ...get your facts right!

 

[FaithLikeARock]

How do we know that's what the original writer intended IAmRedeemed? I don't know about you, but I'm not psychic so I don't really know.

 

[catlover]

When others claim that Christianity does not view homosexuality as a sin it's more than just expressing an opinion. It's spreading mis-information about the faith and needs to be corrected.

Correction: certain denominations which carry the label as "Biblical" condemn homosexuality. Simply because those denominations teach such doesn't make it so.

 

[Zecryphon]

How do we know that's what the original writer intended IAmRedeemed? I don't know about you, but I'm not psychic so I don't really know.

You don't have to be psychic. Just go back to the original language the scriptures were penned in and see what word they used for that act and find the definition of that word.

 

[KCKID]

The same people that cry when we use "Old English" complain when modern english terms are used. There is no such thing as "sexual orientation".

Really? Is this a documented fact or just your opinion? If it is your opinion then you are ignoring the testimonies of many homosexuals. In this case you are calling them a liar (an abomination to God) as well as your calling their 'homosexuality' an abomination to God. You are also implying/saying that until they recognize the lie that they have a non-existant 'homosexual orientation' and become 'heterosexually-oriented' (?) then they are lost. Am I reading you correctly?

There is a such thing as "sinful orientation". We are all born in sinful orientation.

We're all born sinners. We all have different temptations. Sometimes temptations weren't ours to begin with but became ours when someone defiled our minds or bodies with their temptations or the lusts of their flesh, as is the
case with much sexual sin overall, not just teh gaze.
Some people are oriented to rape and murder....classifying it as an orientation doesn't make it any less a sin. It is just a new package, but an old sin.

But anyway, as you said the word was "sodomy"
and what is sodomy?

sod·om·y (sŏd'ə-m&#275
n. Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal,
especially anal intercourse or bestiality.

sod·om·y

/ˈsɒd

ə

mi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sod-uh-mee]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun
1.anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
2.copulation with a member of the same sex.



So, what is the problem?

You are (I assume) calling a homosexual that has never even had sex 'a sodomizer.' And you are doing so with an arrogant flair.

See the problem?