The lie that you believe

[ArchaicTruth]

It is only by gaining true freedom will we be able to exempt ourselves from sinning. My favorite idea (which is of my own) of the afterlife, is that when we die, we are stripped of our physical body (don't feel need for sex, food or any physical comfort and are no longer influenced by our genes), and by walking with God we are filled with all the experiences that could ever occur and all the knowledge of everything, and through this, we truly become free.

 

[MorkandMindy]

It is only by gaining true freedom will we be able to exempt ourselves from sinning. My favorite idea (which is of my own) of the afterlife, is that when we die, we are stripped of our physical body (don't feel need for sex, food or any physical comfort and are no longer influenced by our genes), and by walking with God we are filled with all the experiences that could ever occur and all the knowledge of everything, and through this, we truly become free.

Then who or what will be in this after life? Some shadow of your former self?

 

[MorkandMindy]

Then who or what will be in this after life? Some shadow of your former self?

'I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.' Matt 8.11

I guess 'feast' is metaphorical? Yep, way beyond the understanding of mortals, best get out there is.

You are defined by your opinions, emotions, beliefs, knowledge. With everyone having identical and complete knowledge, and no emotions they won't be real people, hard to define 'enjoyment' when there are no emotions

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Then who or what will be in this after life? Some shadow of your former self?

You will be who you choose to be, of course, without you own experiences or genetics, you won't have any preferences and therefore no defining features, but perhaps we will have other such things to define and differentiate ourselves. Let's not forget that heaven is a joy we cannot comprehend...we will really just have to see eh?

 

[Skavau]

But He doesn't murder souls in hell..........people make their own choices as to their going to heaven or hell.....God just lets them go to the place they have chosen for themselves....

God is the initiator of the causal chain. God created all conditions in which everyone from all circumstances find themselves placed in.

A possible person named X in any world would always in all scenarios torture person B in scenario C. This is an immoral action and it is from person X himself, however - the existence of X is contingent and God does not need to create X. The circumstances of the action are also meaningless and also do not need to be actualised. God being omniscient would be able to prevent such moral evil and given benevolence would therefore prevent such evil.

This argument is entirely applicable in the case of all free actions. If person X tortures B then person X is creating circumstances for B For instance X actualises the circumstance of torturing and are responsible for such a circumstance. However though, the nature of person X and his response to scenario C is in question. It is clear that we have the makings of a causal chain here, with each free action being caused by the person's nature and the circumstance, the circumstance being caused by another free person, etc... until we reach the point where God begins this chain. God could have chosen to create another chain where it leads to virtue and would have been within God's power to do so and therefore God is ultimately responsible for the actions X.

How have you discerned that people going to hell is the antithesis of good?

Entirely good question.

It does of course, depend on the definition of hell.

How can God be all good unless he judges the evil in this world?

God did not need to create the evil, much less judge it. See my response regarding God's initiation of all affairs.

I think it's a honour that God most high, creator of the universe not only created me and then decided I was worthy to be made in his image.

All potentialities are by the fact of the God's omniscience, omnipotence and necessary position as creator of the universe are instantiated into necessities.

On what basis though would God have in your example to discriminate between you being worthy or not worthy?

And even though He knew the possibilities allowed me free choice.

The contradiction is incredible.

I believe just like I'm ruminating about the nature of "sin", it's also the nature of "free will." God gave us free will, which is a wild card all by itself. Who knows what will happen when you do that? Until it happens . . . (Other than God, who apparently still went through with this.)

This is another contradiction.

Skavau

 

[MorkandMindy]

It is only by gaining true freedom will we be able to exempt ourselves from sinning. My favorite idea (which is of my own) of the afterlife, is that when we die, we are stripped of our physical body (don't feel need for sex, food or any physical comfort and are no longer influenced by our genes), and by walking with God we are filled with all the experiences that could ever occur and all the knowledge of everything, and through this, we truly become free.

I think I see what you are saying:

Christianity fails to fit in with the way we are built so the only way to follow it is to remove our human nature.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

How does it fail to fit? I am confused as to what you are suggesting

Of course, nothing fits everything, or we would have all the answers

 

[MorkandMindy]

You will be who you choose to be, of course, without you own experiences or genetics, you won't have any preferences and therefore no defining features, but perhaps we will have other such things to define and differentiate ourselves. Let's not forget that heaven is a joy we cannot comprehend...we will really just have to see eh?

Some say humans are a blank slate waiting to be written on,
others say humans are mainly the product of our genes


You appear to suggest our experiences will be gone, and our genes, so what bits of us go into heaven?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

In this particular instance, the soul

 

[MorkandMindy]

so what bits of us go into heaven?

In this particular instance, the soul

what is the soul, the permanent part of the person that goes to heaven ?

So far the picture I've gained is that it is the person minus

1. the body
2. experiences
3. genetics
4. preferences
5. defining features.
(and presumably all physical desires for food, self preservation and reproduction)

plus new knowledge.

You must say more than just that it is the permanent part of the person the part that goes into heaven for the explanation to be informative.

 

[ArchaicTruth]

This is all pure speculation mind you, as all things past a certain point must be...

What I've already said is rather informative I think. The soul is the part of us that is like God, the only part of us that is free. It's decisions are purely it's own. The only question that ails me as to this is what defines this soul. As to that, I have no answer, I can only guess that perhaps it is not defined at all other than by perhaps it's choices. Of course, that almost turns into circular logic. If I had to guess, I'd say the soul is some sort of energy....sdkf;asdf, I'll stop rambling now.

 

[MorkandMindy]

This is all pure speculation mind you, as all things past a certain point must be...

What I've already said is rather informative I think. The soul is the part of us that is like God, the only part of us that is free. It's decisions are purely it's own. The only question that ails me as to this is what defines this soul. As to that, I have no answer, I can only guess that perhaps it is not defined at all other than by perhaps it's choices. Of course, that almost turns into circular logic. If I had to guess, I'd say the soul is some sort of energy....sdkf;asdf, I'll stop rambling now.

This is the incredible shrinking promise, from gaining eternal life down to 'only the bit of you that is God will be saved'.

John 3.16
'that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.'

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Why should heaven be of earthly joys?

 

[Emmy]

Dear Dragon. The God I believe in, is not only good, He is all Love and Compassion. He made us, you and me, in His image. He gone to great lenghts to prove His love to us, and if we choose not to return to Him, we will end up in outer darkness, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. It will come from those who realise the grave mistake they made, by NOT accepting a loving Saviour, by rather going their own way. Jesus is the Truth, and at the end of our earthly life, it is up to us; where will we go? whom will we follow? I know where I will go, and it certainly is to a God who loves me, and wants me back with Him. I say this humbly and with assurance, Dragon, and send greetings. Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Dear Dragon

One day you will be a happy atheist, atheising, and then your body will give up or something and then you'll meet god and be cast into eternal torment and you'll wish you had known a bit more about reality but hey why would god let you know the choices clearly?

Instead you may have got a visitor from the Jehovah's Witnesses who told you one day the lion will lie down with the lamb, and another nutter who told you god has a plan for your life and the world really is just 6,000 years old, and the beacon of the whole World - a Christian President at last who does exactly what God wants and knows in advance about 911 and major military operations in Iraq have now ended.

Or maybe God likes hiding traps

 

[MorkandMindy]

Dear Dragon

One day you will be a happy atheist, atheising, or whatever, and then your body will give up or something and then you'll meet god and be cast into eternal torment and you'll wish you had known a bit more about reality but hey why would god let you know the choices clearly and in time?

Instead God's message to you was a Jehovah's Witnesses who told you one day the lion will lie down with the lamb, and another nutter who told you god has a plan for your life and the world really is just 6,000 years old.

And of course the beacon of the whole World - a Christian President at last who does exactly what God wants and reveals the truth to the World that God backs Christianity in no uncertain terms except...

except God forgot to tell him about 911 and when after much prayer he felt it right to invade Iraq, God mislead him so after it had taken much longer than he had expected finally he announced that 'major military operations in Iraq have now ended' and became the laughing stock of the World.

How is a person supposed to find out that Christianity is a better religion than so other, or does the Christian god hold people accountable for decisions they don't have accurate information to make?

 

[LovesEnduringPromise]

Oh man, why do so many people who dont believe in God thinks that God send people to hell??? He doesnt. You send yourself. We have a choice to do good or evil. When we reject God we reject heaven. therefore he cannot help us to heaven. HE wants us there but we chose hell. We chose to reject him, so he rejects us. You torture yourself by ultimately choosing evil. Its yoru fault, not his. Why dont people ever take the blame for themselves....its always someone else...

 

[MorkandMindy]

Oh man, why do so many people who dont believe in God thinks that God send people to hell??? He doesnt. You send yourself. We have a choice to do good or evil. When we reject God we reject heaven. therefore he cannot help us to heaven. HE wants us there but we chose hell. We chose to reject him, so he rejects us. You torture yourself by ultimately choosing evil. Its yoru fault, not his. Why dont people ever take the blame for themselves....its always someone else...

Matt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

 

[MessianicMuslim]

Hell is only for satan and his demons.

I think G-d will redeem ALL of mankind through the various ages that are to come.

After the Great Resurrection and those that are cast in the lake of fire, I'm unsure about. But perhaps G-d still has plans for them to repent after their punishment.

 

[Crujir]

Why on earth would anyone choose to spend an eternity in agony and torment? This is one thing that always annoyed me about Christianity. If we get into Heaven its through God's good grace, but if we end up in hell, it's all our fault. Never figured how that one worked.

That happens because we choose to continue sinning and reject salvation. Its as simple as this; Dad said "Do as I tell you and you will not be punished." What happens to those that keep doing it? They get punished. But of course, the sucky part is that we are only human, and everyone messes up. Believe me; I have probably created my own definition of mess up by the things I have done.

But that's what Jesus is for guys. Its like this; let's say you went to court and owed a big debt. If you can't pay it, you will go to jail for life. But suddenly someone runs up and says "Wait! I'll pay for it for you!" If you accept it, you are free to go. But those of us that reject Jesus Christ cannot have our debt paid, and we will pay it ourselves in that lovely little place we all obsess and argue over called Hell.

It is our own choices that send us there. It isn't always exactly choosing to "go to Hell." Its taking a path and making choices in life that will lead you there regardless of what you do. The only way out is to let Jesus pay the debt.