The lie that you believe

ArchaicTruth said:

Fidelis, I'm fair sure the post you quoted has already answered your question....

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Forgive my ignorance, but how so? The post I quoted claimed that it is us who choose to go to hell, I asked who would choose to go to hell. Sorry, but I see no answer to my question.

If I've overlooked something, please, by all means point it out to me

Defcon said:

How have you discerned that people going to hell is the antithesis of good?

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If you have to ask...

We don't choose to go to hell, or at least I don't think most of us do. We do however choose to sin, and hell is supposedly the consequence. Saying that we "choose" to go to hell is like saying I "chose" to get lung cancer because I smoke. I don't want lung cancer, but I want to smoke, and lung cancer is the consequence.

No I don't actually smoke.

Anything else you'd like me to answer? I tend to give more logical answers than most Christians I find : /

ArchaicTruth said:

We don't choose to go to hell, or at least I don't think most of us do. We do however choose to sin, and hell is supposedly the consequence. Saying that we "choose" to go to hell is like saying I "chose" to get lung cancer because I smoke. I don't want lung cancer, but I want to smoke, and lung cancer is the consequence.

No I don't actually smoke.

Anything else you'd like me to answer? I tend to give more logical answers than most Christians I find : /

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Yes but a person who smokes, in this day and age especially, is fully aware that smoking can lead to lung cancer. They may not specifically want to get it (I'm sure they don't), but they smoke with full knowledge of the risks.

I am not choosing to not follow God with the understanding that I may end up in hell for my choice, I am simply not following a God that I believe doesn't exist. I don't "choose" to sin, it is simply a meaningless concept to an atheist such as myself. So with that in mind, it really comes down to God supposedly sending people to hell for an honest mistake, rather then willing rebellion.

A thanks for your explanation, you did explain yourself very clearly. I appreciate it.

Steve

Depends on the under standing of the Christian God doesn't it.

The bible illustrates how from the fall, all man is not perfect. To sin is fact to "fall short". The moment man decided to rebel against God, to decide that he knows better, was the moment we sinned.

God cannot tolerate sin, by His nature, He is a perfect God and so the moment man sinned, meant there had to be a consequence.

God has to destroy sin - because He is holy, He cannot allow sin to rule. So the bible goes on to show how the world began to dwell more and more into sin. In Romans, Paul speaks about the wages of sin being death. Indeed God spells it out to Adam and Eve - if you eat the fruit you will die. The devil put doubt in man's mind, did God actually say that - and then man chooses to sin.

So then man has to die for their disobedience to God - and then God sacrifices His son Jesus Christ on the cross - a perfect sacrifice in order to restore the relationship between man and God.

To me, it all seems like a big game. If you believe the Genesis story, God put the tree right in front of them and allowed the talking snake into the garden. So God made humans, who have a curious nature anyway (which God designed), and if you tell someone not to do something and put that thing right in front of their faces, you're only going to make them want to do it more (tempting them, if you will). Plus there's this talking snake tempting them. God, who made humans, and presumably understood human nature, since he designed it, should have known this would happen. But he put the tree there anyway. Almost sounds like he wanted it to happen. Or it was an experiment of some sort. How could Adam and Eve have known the repercussions of their actions? Apparently they didn't even have knowledge of good & evil yet, since that's what eating the apple was supposed to do.

Then there's the whole Jesus thing. God sacrifices himself to himself in order to save people from the rule that he himself made. Why is all of that necessary? If God really is all powerful, why can't he just say "Ok, all forgiven," and make sure everybody knows it so there's no room for doubt? I don't really buy the argument that God can't stand to be around sin and whatnot because he created humans, who sinned. Besides, if God is all powerful he should be able to do anything.

All we have to go on for this is an old book and if you don't believe what it says you go to hell? What kind of loving God does that? If he really wanted for no one to go to hell a) he wouldn't have made hell in the first place and b) he'd give more proof of himself so there wouldn't be any doubt. If I don't believe what the Bible says, as I have no proof that what it says is true and since it is one of many conflicting religious texts, then I'm not going to believe that it's God's word. Also maybe God shouldn't have given humans logical, analytical minds that would think and question what the Bible says.

So there's my rant. Just seems like a big game to me, a game with really high stakes and none of the players are 100% sure of the rules.

shmee said:

So there's my rant. Just seems like a big game to me, a game with really high stakes and none of the players are 100% sure of the rules.

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That's the fun part

ArchaicTruth said:

That's the fun part

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Unless you've gotten the rules wrong.

As I said it comes down to the understanding to what God is. He made us in his image - not just a dummy of some sort. So yes, He knew fully that humans were going to be tempted and likely to sin.

It's a bit like funnily enough parents having children - their kids could turn out into great people and look after them in their old age, or they could be rebellious and do everything that the parents don't want them to.

I think it's a honour that God most high, creator of the universe not only created me and then decided I was worthy to be made in his image. And even though He knew the possibilities allowed me free choice. He - who deserves all glory and praise, came and died for my sin. When by all rights He could have destroyed everything. It is His love and mercy that stops him from destroying us! Yet He is holy so there HAS to be judgement, and He himself paid the price. So what more can you want?

GodsoldierClintus said:

As I said it comes down to the understanding to what God is. He made us in his image - not just a dummy of some sort. So yes, He knew fully that humans were going to be tempted and likely to sin.

It's a bit like funnily enough parents having children - their kids could turn out into great people and look after them in their old age, or they could be rebellious and do everything that the parents don't want them to.

I think it's a honour that God most high, creator of the universe not only created me and then decided I was worthy to be made in his image. And even though He knew the possibilities allowed me free choice. He - who deserves all glory and praise, came and died for my sin. When by all rights He could have destroyed everything. It is His love and mercy that stops him from destroying us! Yet He is holy so there HAS to be judgement, and He himself paid the price. So what more can you want?

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Why's he so upset about it if he created us this way? He created flawed creatures who sin, you can't punish something for being the way you made it. It's not quite like having kids, after all you don't get to design them exactly how you want them. Also, if God is all powerful, then he gets to decide the rules. Why does there have to be anything? Why did he have to sacrifice himself to himself?

GodsoldierClintus said:

As I said it comes down to the understanding to what God is. He made us in his image - not just a dummy of some sort. So yes, He knew fully that humans were going to be tempted and likely to sin.

It's a bit like funnily enough parents having children - their kids could turn out into great people and look after them in their old age, or they could be rebellious and do everything that the parents don't want them to.

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So god only knew that we were going to be tempted and likely to sin, but he didn´t know for sure that we would sin? Else your analogy is flawed in the very crucial point.

I think it's a honour that God most high, creator of the universe not only created me and then decided I was worthy to be made in his image.

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Except that the verdict on our worthiness is scheduled for Judgement Day. According to Christian doctrine many of us have ultimately been produced though they are worthy to spend their afterlife in the eternal trashcan.

If God really is all powerful, why can't he just say "Ok, all forgiven," and make sure everybody knows it so there's no room for doubt? I don't really buy the argument that God can't stand to be around sin and whatnot because he created humans, who sinned. Besides, if God is all powerful he should be able to do anything.

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I see this question come up again and again, and it's one that intrigues me. It's about the exact nature of "sin."

God cannot tolerate sin. It's "wrong", but what or why exactly other than God's perfection makes "sin" intolerable? Or what is the quality of God's perfection that won't tolerate sin? The nature of "sin" must so abhorrent to God or violates such a powerful law (God's law) that it cannot be tolerated. This is getting deeper to what exactly sin is. There is something more about it that I can't put my finger on (other than God cannot tolerate it). I hope people are following me on this . . .

God, who is perfect, can do anything, except tolerate "sin". Why? I'm thinking it's more about the question of sin itself rather than God, but . . . Sin leads to (and is) imperfection and God is perfect. That's about as close as I can come to an answer (for myself).

I think it's a honour that God most high, creator of the universe not only created me and then decided I was worthy to be made in his image. And even though He knew the possibilities allowed me free choice. He - who deserves all glory and praise, came and died for my sin. When by all rights He could have destroyed everything. It is His love and mercy that stops him from destroying us! Yet He is holy so there HAS to be judgement, and He himself paid the price. So what more can you want?

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VWS! You know, He could've bypassed people altogether, but didn't. He must think we're worth it after all or something . . .

Why's he so upset about it if he created us this way? He created flawed creatures who sin, you can't punish something for being the way you made it. It's not quite like having kids, after all you don't get to design them exactly how you want them. Also, if God is all powerful, then he gets to decide the rules. Why does there have to be anything? Why did he have to sacrifice himself to himself?

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I believe just like I'm ruminating about the nature of "sin", it's also the nature of "free will." God gave us free will, which is a wild card all by itself. Who knows what will happen when you do that? Until it happens . . . (Other than God, who apparently still went through with this.) That's free will's very nature when you decide to give someone that quality.

And He's upset because humans use their free will to sin . . . Why should He be upset? Why go through all this trouble? I think it brings us back again that He must think we're worth it after all or something . . .

Actually, I do think it's like having kids. You do your best, but you can't control them either.

Therefore for His children He sacrificed Himself to bring his kids back home. He is the way so that people may believe. I don't think another kind of sacrifice would've worked. God as human, showing by inhabiting a human body, living a human life, murdered by humans is a very powerful example that makes it easier for humans to relate to Him. He's been there, done that. I see the why of that all clearly.

SemperFidelis said:

Yes but a person who smokes, in this day and age especially, is fully aware that smoking can lead to lung cancer. They may not specifically want to get it (I'm sure they don't), but they smoke with full knowledge of the risks.

I am not choosing to not follow God with the understanding that I may end up in hell for my choice, I am simply not following a God that I believe doesn't exist. I don't "choose" to sin, it is simply a meaningless concept to an atheist such as myself. So with that in mind, it really comes down to God supposedly sending people to hell for an honest mistake, rather then willing rebellion.

A thanks for your explanation, you did explain yourself very clearly. I appreciate it.

Steve

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I'm sorry, but atheist or no atheist, anyone who is not prepared to face the consequences of their actions, whatever they may be, is a fool.

shmee said:

Unless you've gotten the rules wrong.

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No, it's still pretty fun

ArchaicTruth said:

I'm sorry, but atheist or no atheist, anyone who is not prepared to face the consequences of their actions, whatever they may be, is a fool.

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Be that as it may - the question at hand, however, is: Do fools deserve spending eternity in hell? Is it a good idea (and does it correspond with our understanding of reason) that a person who - when being unsufficiently informed and educated - did something that turns out to be foolish is punished for all eternity for this mistake? Is it reasonable to say that he "chose" this punishment because at some point (an unbelievably small point in time, compared to eternity) he acted foolishly, whilst for most of this eternity (and for the part of eternity when he finally can make an educated choice, at that) he clearly would not choose hell? Is it reasonable to determine the choice of a person as that which he did when he wasn´t sufficiently informed, and disregard his educated choice?

The word "consequence" is a misnomer here, anyways. It makes your god look like having very limited power. Consequences are that which is inevitable, whilst your omnipotent god could free people from hell with a snap of his fingers.

You know, even us imperfect humans can do that. When a smoker gets cancer, we don´t simply say "Serves you right, you chose to have cancer. Accept the consequences, and die already, you fool! You have changed your mind? Too late, you have made your choice earlier, your current choice doesn´t count. ", but we do everything that is in our power to cure him.

This is one of the issues where we fall into the trap of:

What is better -- should evil be punished or reformed?

Man has not yet decided which is appropriate and only God has, though it seems as if His opinion is a little bit hidden and highly debatable.

The question is inappropriate because either God is immoral for not punishing evil doers or he is immoral for not reforming them, and if he does a mix of the two it can be portrayed similarly as wrong.

It is a catch-22 argument and unfair to everyone who partakes in it.

jmverville said:

This is one of the issues where we fall into the trap of:

What is better -- should evil be punished or reformed?

Man has not yet decided which is appropriate and only God has, though it seems as if His opinion is a little bit hidden and highly debatable.

The question is inappropriate because either God is immoral for not punishing evil doers or he is immoral for not reforming them, and if he does a mix of the two it can be portrayed similarly as wrong.

It is a catch-22 argument and unfair to everyone who partakes in it.

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Don´t you love it when your god leaves his preferences "a little bit hidden and debatable" in such an essential moral question?

Then again, there can´t be any doubt that the god of the christian concept has no problem with "reforming evil". He does it on a regular basis, and everyone in heaven must have undergone this process. Remember - "We are all sinners"?

We pay for our choices, and a fool has no choice, only ignorance

Yggdrasil said:

Howwwww many times can I say this.....god is responsible for everything in reality....including the idea of sin, and the environment and opportunities for sin, ultimately, god is responsible for sin and evil being a reality since nothing can be real without his doing. But thats if you believe in "sin".

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no.... god created all that is, and gave it to man to oversee ... but man had the freedom to choose , a free will ...

fallen man , can choose to twist good into evil creating sickness, death, poverty, suffering ...

evil here is the work of man with a little help from satan who chose to desert, rebel, and subvert the gifts given him ..

GodsoldierClintus said:

... To sin is fact to "fall short"...
God cannot tolerate sin, by His nature, He is a perfect God and so the moment man sinned, meant there had to be a consequence.
God has to destroy sin - because He is holy, ...

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Children learning to do anything 'fall short'. Does this mean learning is a sin?