The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

Doveaman said:

But I do know, so why suggest that I write a lie?

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What I suggested was that, if you had no answer, you might as well have just said that instead of what you chose to say instead.

OSAS is not denied based on personal interpretation. In the Bible, there are numerous examples of those that FIND the truth, and those that FOLLOW the truth. And the IDEA that one can KNOW they are 'saved' is contrary to FAITH. If you KNOW something, there is NO faith involved, it is then FACT. Not something HOPED for, but something someone ALREADY BELIEVES exists.

And then let us take the FUTURE as described in the Bible into consideration.

It STATES that at some point in the future, the Book of Life will be opened and ALL men will then be judged according to their 'works'. ALL indication is that AT THIS TIME, those deemed worthy of LIFE, (Salvation), will be granted LIFE and those deemed worthy of DEATH, (annihilation), will receive DEATH.

Then it states that the Devil will be separated from man for ONE THOUSAND YEARS. And at the end of the one thousand years, Satan will once again be released upon mankind to WEED out the TRUE and FAITHFUL believers from those that Satan is able to deceive.

So EVEN those that are deemed WORTHY of LIFE upon the opening of the Book of Life, in the future, have the potential to LOSE their 'life'.

Isn't this PURE indication that the 'OSAS' theology is completely VOID and without CAUSE?

I'll put it this way: You WON'T KNOW that you are saved until you are ACTUALLY 'saved'. In other words, Salvation doesn't exist UNTIL it is MANIFEST. And that it is AN IMPOSSIBILITY to receive Salvation while one LIVES in the FLESH. If the BOOK of LIFE has YET to be OPENED, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to KNOW that they are to be granted Salvation. That is WHY we are instructed to RUN the RACE like we mean to WIN it. To 'work out' our salvation in fear and trembling. If it were something that we could 'snap our fingers' and possess, these words couldn't exist.

Any true GIFT can either be accepted or DENIED. That is the NATURE of a 'gift'. In order to be RECEIVED as a 'gift', it MUST be accepted. You cannot FORCE a 'gift' upon another. For the moment that you turn away, that gift can be abandoned. I can GIVE a gift AWAY or throw it in the garbage, burn it, ignore it, I can pretend it NEVER happened. So it's perfectly clear that IF 'Salvation' is a GIFT of God, those to whom it is OFFERED are able to accept it, deny it, accept it and THEN deny it. Otherwise it isn't REALLY a gift. If God offers the GIFT, then it MUST have the potential to be accepted or denied. And if accepted, obviously at a later point it could just as easily be DENIED.

Blessings,

MEC

If the Bible is to be trusted, then it is God who adopted us as His children. (See Ephesians 1) Will the God who marked us as His own, cast us away if we become prodigal sons? Will God's work of sanctification cease to continue?
If we were not saved by our own actions do we think we will be cast away because of our own actions? What, then, happens to grace?

Doveaman said:

Okay here is the context.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.” – (Matt 24:9-13).

It is within the context of Christians being persecuted, betrayed and killed for their faith, and many people being deceived, and becoming increasing lawless and loveless.

Jesus is encouraging His followers not to be like those many people who are being deceived and becoming increasingly lawless and loveless. He is encouraging His followers to remain faithful to Him, even unto death, despite their difficult conditions because He will save them in the end at His second coming.

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Doveman, thanks for that reply.
Many people...especially JW's I've talked with....use that verse to justify salvation via merit.

MennoSota said:

If the Bible is to be trusted, then it is God who adopted us as His children. (See Ephesians 1) Will the God who marked us as His own, cast us away if we become prodigal sons? Will God's work of sanctification cease to continue?
If we were not saved by our own actions do we think we will be cast away because of our own actions? What, then, happens to grace?

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The saved by grace...held in salvation by works theology doctrine is kinda strange.

If merit were NOT an integral PART of salvation, then we would NEVER be told what we MUST DO in order to receive salvation. I find it amazing that those that preach OSAS or predestination FAIL to acknowledge ALL the scripture that COMMAND us or say we MUST DO in order to RECEIVE.

It is ABSURD to believe that ANY 'grace' or "GIFT OFFERED" cannot be DENIED or thrown away. Many make it SOUND like God is going to FORCE grace upon them regardless of their actions.

Yet the Bible doesn't only INSTRUCT us that we can LOSE our Salvation, if offers EXAMPLES for our edification and understanding.

I'll tell you what, you offer ONE scripture that STATES we CANNOT lose or give up our 'salvation' once received, and I'll offer TWO to one that STATE we surely CAN.

So from what OSAS would indicate, once one is 'born again', they are NO LONGER ABLE to reject God or His Son. LUDICROUS. Anyone with FREEDOM of choice can DENY ANYTHING in their MIND and in their heart. I challenge anyone to offer ANYTHING out of the Bible that would indicate, doesn't even need to STATE it, but even INDICATE that we have NO CHOICE.

For ANYTHING we have been COMMANDED to do, anything that states we MUST DO, is instruction concerning CHOICE. For I can assure you, ANYTHING offered in the Bible that states we MUST or is a commandment, there are BILLIONS of people choosing NOT to DO these things EVERY DAY.

Oh, and I'm NOT a JW.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

If merit were NOT an integral PART of salvation, then we would NEVER be told what we MUST DO in order to receive salvation. I find it amazing that those that preach OSAS or predestination FAIL to acknowledge ALL the scripture that COMMAND us or say we MUST DO in order to RECEIVE.

It is ABSURD to believe that ANY 'grace' or "GIFT OFFERED" cannot be DENIED or thrown away. Many make it SOUND like God is going to FORCE grace upon them regardless of their actions.

Yet the Bible doesn't only INSTRUCT us that we can LOSE our Salvation, if offers EXAMPLES for our edification and understanding.

I'll tell you what, you offer ONE scripture that STATES we CANNOT lose or give up our 'salvation' once received, and I'll offer TWO to one that STATE we surely CAN.

So from what OSAS would indicate, once one is 'born again', they are NO LONGER ABLE to reject God or His Son. LUDICROUS. Anyone with FREEDOM of choice can DENY ANYTHING in their MIND and in their heart. I challenge anyone to offer ANYTHING out of the Bible that would indicate, doesn't even need to STATE it, but even INDICATE that we have NO CHOICE.

For ANYTHING we have been COMMANDED to do, anything that states we MUST DO, is instruction concerning CHOICE. For I can assure you, ANYTHING offered in the Bible that states we MUST or is a commandment, there are BILLIONS of people choosing NOT to DO these things EVERY DAY.

Blessings,

MEC

Blessings,

MEC

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John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

And you would offer this scripture as if you UNDERSTAND it.

I didn't offer ANYTHING about SOMEONE or SOMETHING being able to SNATCH your salvation away from you. I stated as clearly as possible that whoever RECEIVES a gift has EVERY RIGHT to give it back, throw it away or ignore it once received.

Then you come back and indicate otherwise by offering a completely DIFFERENT concept? NICE TRY. But all you've accomplished is make me wonder if you understand what you offered compared to the topic of the conversation?????

Now, do us a favor and ADMIT that the scripture has NOTHING to do with the individual making their OWN choice to 'give up' their salvation. That the scripture you offer is concerning Satan or any other enemy SNATCHING someone away from God. NOTHING to do with the topic.

Otherwise the indication is that you don't really WANT to acknowledge the truth even when broken down and explained to you in a manner that really CAN'T be denied. I HOPE that if you BELIEVED this to mean something ELSE, now you KNOW the difference.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

And you would offer this scripture as if you UNDERSTAND it.

I didn't offer ANYTHING about SOMEONE or SOMETHING being able to SNATCH your salvation away from you. I stated as clearly as possible that whoever RECEIVES a gift has EVERY RIGHT to give it back, throw it away or ignore it once received.

Then you come back and indicate otherwise by offering a completely DIFFERENT concept? NICE TRY. But all you've accomplished is make me wonder if you understand what you offered compared to the topic of the conversation?????

Now, do us a favor and ADMIT that the scripture has NOTHING to do with the individual making their OWN choice to 'give up' their salvation. That the scripture you offer is concerning Satan or any other enemy SNATCHING someone away from God. NOTHING to do with the topic.

Otherwise the indication is that you don't really WANT to acknowledge the truth even when broken down and explained to you in a manner that really CAN'T be denied. I HOPE that if you BELIEVED this to mean something ELSE, now you KNOW the difference.

Blessings,

MEC

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You said "That the scripture you offer is concerning Satan or any other enemy SNATCHING someone away from God. NOTHING to do with the topic."

That's where you're wrong.

Prior to that you said "I stated as clearly as possible that whoever RECEIVES a gift has EVERY RIGHT to give it back, throw it away or ignore it once received."

......The question becomes.....what would cause or eventually cause an individual to give salvation back? Its obvious it is due to some form of influence. Perhaps Satan or some other enemy. Slowly causing/pursuading you to loose your faith. Trying to snatch you out of Gods hand.

But, praise the Lord....if you are truly saved and you do fall...backslide...loose your faith...etc, you can't be taken from Jesus.

Oh, so you propose that YOU are a puppet and have absolutely no effect on the life that you live?

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican said:

Oh, so you propose that YOU are a puppet and have absolutely no effect on the life that you live?

Blessings,

MEC

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No. I never suggested that. Nor did I intend to suggest that.

I'll stick with no one can snatch you from Gods hand....no one meaning no one. No one would also include yourself.

Imagican said:

If merit were NOT an integral PART of salvation, then we would NEVER be told what we MUST DO in order to receive salvation. I find it amazing that those that preach OSAS or predestination FAIL to acknowledge ALL the scripture that COMMAND us or say we MUST DO in order to RECEIVE.

It is ABSURD to believe that ANY 'grace' or "GIFT OFFERED" cannot be DENIED or thrown away. Many make it SOUND like God is going to FORCE grace upon them regardless of their actions.

Yet the Bible doesn't only INSTRUCT us that we can LOSE our Salvation, if offers EXAMPLES for our edification and understanding.

I'll tell you what, you offer ONE scripture that STATES we CANNOT lose or give up our 'salvation' once received, and I'll offer TWO to one that STATE we surely CAN.

So from what OSAS would indicate, once one is 'born again', they are NO LONGER ABLE to reject God or His Son. LUDICROUS. Anyone with FREEDOM of choice can DENY ANYTHING in their MIND and in their heart. I challenge anyone to offer ANYTHING out of the Bible that would indicate, doesn't even need to STATE it, but even INDICATE that we have NO CHOICE.

For ANYTHING we have been COMMANDED to do, anything that states we MUST DO, is instruction concerning CHOICE. For I can assure you, ANYTHING offered in the Bible that states we MUST or is a commandment, there are BILLIONS of people choosing NOT to DO these things EVERY DAY.

Oh, and I'm NOT a JW.

Blessings,

MEC

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I'll take you up on Bible verses.

You share a verse where God uses the term "free will" and I will share verses where God uses the term "chosen." I will allow you to use any translation you wish. I will simply use the ESV.

You go first. Share all the verses where God proclaims free will or that we can lose salvation.

I promise that I will not use all caps so that you can see I am remaining calm and trying to understand your perspective. This discussion is not one that I will lose sleep over, but it is interesting to me to see the Bible verses you use for your position.

It's not that I believe in ES... but it's hard to take a site seriously that leads off with...



That said, it's clear that Scripture calls for patience, endurance, repentance and other things that are linguistically incompatible with the spirit of ES theology.

thecolorsblend said:

It's not that I believe in ES... but it's hard to take a site seriously that leads off with...



That said, it's clear that Scripture calls for patience, endurance, repentance and other things that are linguistically incompatible with the spirit of ES theology.

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The term "Eternal Security" is a man-made term, as is the term "free-will." Both terms, however, seem to put the onus of responsibility upon fallible humans.
How does the Sovereignty of God fit into this discussion?

Does God remove prodigal sons from being family members?

I, once again, offer a study of what God means when He uses the term, "chosen."

MennoSota said:

The term "Eternal Security" is a man-made term, as is the term "free-will."

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"Calvinist" is a man-made term. "Christian" is a man-made term. "Bible" is a man-made term. "Term" is a man-made term.

Something being "man-made" doesn't make it untrustworthy ipso facto.

MennoSota said:

Both terms, however, seem to put the onus of responsibility upon fallible humans.

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"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
"He who endures to the end shall be saved."
"Here is the patience of the saints."

There is a burden upon the individual to be faithful and obedient.

MennoSota said:

How does the Sovereignty of God fit into this discussion?

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Do tell.

thecolorsblend said:

"He who endures to the end shall be saved."

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What must one do to endure to the end and get saved?

thecolorsblend said:

"Calvinist" is a man-made term. "Christian" is a man-made term. "Bible" is a man-made term. "Term" is a man-made term.

Something being "man-made" doesn't make it untrustworthy ipso facto.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
"He who endures to the end shall be saved."
"Here is the patience of the saints."

There is a burden upon the individual to be faithful and obedient.

Do tell.

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You are right. "Calvinist" is not found in the Bible. The term "Christian" is found in the Bible as a label of those who follow Messiah, Yeshua.
If we are going to discuss God's work in redemption we should emphasize God's words rather than our own.
As to the first verse you chose, it might be good to quote the verse and the context around it. Rather than spend time explaining my undestanding of this verse, I will point you to a good article.
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/why-must-we-work-out-our-salvation
Finally, please expand on your phrase, "Do tell."

MennoSota said:

The term "Eternal Security" is a man-made term, as is the term "free-will." Both terms, however, seem to put the onus of responsibility upon fallible humans.
How does the Sovereignty of God fit into this discussion?

Does God remove prodigal sons from being family members?

I, once again, offer a study of what God means when He uses the term, "chosen."

Click to expand...

Ok, let's examine that very thought. So, what IF? What IF the Prodigal Son had sold himself into slavery to someone other than his Father and NEVER chose to go back home? Or once home, decided that he didn't LIKE IT there and moved away again?

Blessings,

MEC

And then explain how one maintains FAITH in something that he believes he ALREADY possesses.

Blessings,

MEC

Matthew 6:15 (KJV)
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Do YOU propose that ALL that are 'born again' will continually FORGIVE their neighbors? So what happens if they DON'T? The scripture here says they will NOT receive forgiveness. Without forgiveness there IS NO Salvation.

1 Corinthians 15 (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

So what happens if one DOESN'T keep to memory what Paul has preached: the Gospels? And what happens if one's LOSES their FAITH? For NO ONE has been GUARANTEED 'faith'. We are to KEEP UP our faith. That's one of those MUSTS I referred to before. And not just ANY faith, but faith in GOD through His Son.

Show us where we are GUARANTEED to be GIVEN faith to live our LIVES without error or chance of it being altered.

2 Peter:

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Then consider this:

1 Corinthians 9:24
Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

or this:

Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Now WHY would one NEED to 'work out' their Salvation if it is GUARANTEED? If it was IMPOSSIBLE to lose it, there would be NO NEED for fear nor a need to WORK IT OUT.

Now, you show me ONE that offers something contrary. ONE verse that states that one CANNOT LOSE their 'Salvation'.

That verse previously offered says nothing of the sort. It simply states that one cannot be SNATCHED from Christ. It offers NOTHING concerning one's OWN CHOICE.

Blessings,

MEC