The legality of US Segregration

[Lik3]

I wrote this on another thread in this forum. I was wondering in the past why after slavery the evil of segregation was considered legal. It certainly was immoral. After all, it was really a policy of unfair and unequal. How did segregation come about after Reconstruction and why was it deemed legal? Not only was it immoral, but it seems that many Southern states saw a loophole and created the policy of racial segregation

 

[blackribbon]

People genuinely believed that black people were different and it wasn't just a skin colored thing. They got away with it with "seperate but equal"...meaning that blacks were allowed to have their own restaurants, schools, recreational facilities, churches so they had equal access. And since people tend to live in near people with similar cultures, then it would make sense that these things were in the same neighborhood as your homes.

You say this is obviously immoral but it wasn't as obvious as you believe. There was a long history of teaching white children that black people were different, less intelligent, less capable, less human (lies that were necessary to make people accepting of enslaving other people)...so "obviously" they needed different schools to deal with their lower intelligence levels and social skills. For a long time, people were taught that black people couldn't swim ... that they lack buoyancy necessary to be able to be taught to swim. And before you say "that is stupid", there are still major cultures in the current world that believe that women are less intellectually capable than men just because they are women.

 

[blackribbon]

Ending wasn't as easy as just saying "everyone is now free"....this was a major financial investment made by the plantations. It would be like a current company just suddenly giving away all their computers. You would lose a lot of money that has already been spent and you would need to find a lot of trained replacement labor very fast. I suspect that a lot of plantation owners had a lot of mixed feeling about their slaves but didn't know how to fix the issue without ruining themselves.

 

[Lik3]

I have to agree with you to a point. Recently I have read about all of the black towns, black-owned businesses and shops, black schools, and blacks who had a lot of land and their own neighborhoods. Despite what I wrote, black people had to struggle through a lot, because of the racism and segregation policies. I recall I asked my mother about living in the South during segregation and I was surprised what I had heard. There were people who for many years, even generations who were taught that blacks were inferior to the point where we had to sit in the back of the bus. There were things she told me that shocked me and I wondered why this too wasn't taught in schools. All I knew about and were taught in school was racism, separate fountains, racists white kids spitting at black kids, and lynchings of blacks. I am not saying those things did not happen (I would be so stupid to deny those things have happened, because they did.), but I am saddened that like slavery, the words of everyday citizens during that time are not being taught at school, but online. I seem to know more about the history of black Americans and other Americans on Pinterest, The Root, and Facebook than in schools.

 

[blackribbon]

How much time did you spend learning about any one aspect of American history in school? For example, how long did you focus on the Japanese internment camps? Did you study about the WWII prisoner of war camps in Texas? How about the history of the Separatists and their time in the Netherlands before they gave up and decided to come to the colonies and (becoming the Pilgrims) it is important to understanding them. There is just no way to focus on one time frame and doing a deep study...especially on a pre-collegiate level. There is nothing keeping you from learning on your own...and being able to make sure that you study all viewpoints because nothing in history is really black and white nor can fit in two paragraphs in a general history book.

 

[Lik3]

How much time did you spend learning about any one aspect of American history in school? For example, how long did you focus on the Japanese internment camps? Did you study about the WWII prisoner of war camps in Texas? How about the history of the Separatists and their time in the Netherlands before they gave up and decided to come to the colonies and (becoming the Pilgrims) it is important to understanding them. There is just no way to focus on one time frame and doing a deep study...especially on a pre-collegiate level. There is nothing keeping you from learning on your own...and being able to make sure that you study all viewpoints because nothing in history is really black and white nor can fit in two paragraphs in a general history book.

Agreed. That is why I am glad that there are everyday people, universities, libraries, and the internet. I love learning history wherever I may find it. All of what you have mentioned I have to look up, but there are quite a few things that I have been interested in. Anyway, thanks.

 

[blackribbon]

Agreed. That is why I am glad that there are everyday people, universities, libraries, and the internet. I love learning history wherever I may find it. All of what you have mentioned I have to look up, but there are quite a few things that I have been interested in. Anyway, thanks.

Can I suggest that you pick one time period and then start reading. First hand accounts (people who lived it) are better sources and don't try to teach history from a modern morality viewpoint. Look at as many photos or drawing done at the time period. I had a college professor that taught reading the lyrics to popular songs teaches a lot about the frame of mind of the general public.

For example: a very popular song in the confederacy was "The Bonnie Blue Flag" that as you read the lyrics, it becomes obvious that the popular sentiment of the time was "southern rights".

We are a band of brothers
And native to the soil,
Fighting for the property
We gained by honest toil;
And when our rights were threatened,
The cry rose near and far--
"Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star!"

CHORUS:
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.

As long as the Union
Was faithful to her trust,
Like friends and like brothers
Both kind were we and just;
But now, when Northern treachery
Attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

First gallant South Carolina
Nobly made the stand,
Then came Alabama,
Who took her by the hand.
Next quickly Mississippi,
Georgia and Florida
All raised on high the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

Ye men of valor, gather round
The banner of the right;
Texas and fair Louisiana
Join us in the fight.
Davis, our loved president,
And Stephens statesmen are;
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

And here's to old Virginia--
The Old Dominion State--
Who with the young Confederacy
At length has linked her fate;
Impelled by her example,
Now other states prepare
To hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

Then cheer, boys, cheer;
Raise the joyous shout,
For Arkansas and North Carolina
Now have both gone out;
And let another rousing cheer
For Tennessee be given,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag
Has grown to be eleven.
CHORUS

Then here's to our Confederacy,
Strong are we and brave;
Like patriots of old we'll fight
Our heritage to save.
And rather than submit to shame,
To die we would prefer;
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

 

[blackribbon]

I also like to find as many documentaries I can find on a topic and just watch them...remembering that they can be twisted to tell whatever the documentarian wants to tell (and they can lie). I like to watch multiples for this reason...and then start reading on my own.

 

[Lik3]

Can I suggest that you pick one time period and then start reading. First hand accounts (people who lived it) are better sources and don't try to teach history from a modern morality viewpoint. Look at as many photos or drawing done at the time period. I had a college professor that taught reading the lyrics to popular songs teaches a lot about the frame of mind of the general public.

For example: a very popular song in the confederacy was "The Bonnie Blue Flag" that as you read the lyrics, it becomes obvious that the popular sentiment of the time was "southern rights".

We are a band of brothers
And native to the soil,
Fighting for the property
We gained by honest toil;
And when our rights were threatened,
The cry rose near and far--
"Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star!"

CHORUS:
Hurrah! Hurrah!
For Southern rights hurrah!
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.

As long as the Union
Was faithful to her trust,
Like friends and like brothers
Both kind were we and just;
But now, when Northern treachery
Attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

First gallant South Carolina
Nobly made the stand,
Then came Alabama,
Who took her by the hand.
Next quickly Mississippi,
Georgia and Florida
All raised on high the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

Ye men of valor, gather round
The banner of the right;
Texas and fair Louisiana
Join us in the fight.
Davis, our loved president,
And Stephens statesmen are;
Now rally round the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

And here's to old Virginia--
The Old Dominion State--
Who with the young Confederacy
At length has linked her fate;
Impelled by her example,
Now other states prepare
To hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

Then cheer, boys, cheer;
Raise the joyous shout,
For Arkansas and North Carolina
Now have both gone out;
And let another rousing cheer
For Tennessee be given,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag
Has grown to be eleven.
CHORUS

Then here's to our Confederacy,
Strong are we and brave;
Like patriots of old we'll fight
Our heritage to save.
And rather than submit to shame,
To die we would prefer;
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag
That bears a single star.
CHORUS

Out of curiosity, how long have you been a student of history? Do you teach history? You are right about not looking at things through a modern context. I think sometimes modern contexts can get in the way of learning about things the way they were and the way people saw them at the time. For an instance, I was doing a search on my family history and there was a book written about my hometown and the families that lived here. I recognized some of the surnames from here and I cannot and will not judge people today for what others with that surname have done, if anything. My European-descended ancestors were regular landowners who did not own slaves. Some were average everyday people that fought for the Confederacy, but I cannot say that they were slave owners or if they ever cared about any slaves. I have no clue how the average everyday white person felt about blacks at the time.

However, I know that there were some whites who did have the racist stereotypes of the day about blacks. Racists believe that blacks were childlike, subhuman, and therefore lack intelligence. Were they racists? I don't know because even though there were racists who believed in that doesn't mean that all white Southerners have those same beliefs. Another common belief was that blacks here had it better here than in Africa (Mind you, the book was written in the early 1900s). Naive as the writer's opinions seem to me, it was probably a common thought in the US at the time. To many that point seems rather racist today because, of PC attitudes, and because many of us here in the States have a one-sided view about Africa. From what I remember he was even writing about the origins of my ancestors to an extent and that they were owed, which is interesting. This source should be of interest to you.
Here is the source:
https://archive.org/details/cu31924028790414
http://www.carolana.com/SC/Counties/marion_county_sc.html

 

[Lik3]

I also like to find as many documentaries I can find on a topic and just watch them...remembering that they can be twisted to tell whatever the documentarian wants to tell (and they can lie). I like to watch multiples for this reason...and then start reading on my own.

Do you have any documentaries you can recommend?

 

[blackribbon]

Do you have any documentaries you can recommend?

No because I have watched so many. And it would depend on what time frame you are wanting to study. I like to start with the PBS/History Channels multi-episode movies that give a fairly extensive overview, then start watching one that cover particular people and events. I particularly like the series that are directed by Ken Burns regardless of the topic. He made an 11 episode series called The Civil War in 1991.

 

[blackribbon]

I am a normal person who finds history fascinating because it is the story of people. The more you study, the more you realize that people are the same...just the circumstances change. I love studying the historical aspects of the Bible. I love doing genealogy. I love studying people. I have two science degrees but my spare time has always been interesting in going to historical sites and reading, biographies in particular. I did homeschool both my kids and often learned along side of them.

 

[Lik3]

No because I have watched so many. And it would depend on what time frame you are wanting to study. I like to start with the PBS/History Channels multi-episode movies that give a fairly extensive overview, then start watching one that cover particular people and events. I particularly like the series that are directed by Ken Burns regardless of the topic. He made an 11 episode series called The Civil War in 1991.

I may have watched the one with Ken Burns already. Thanks. I could also go to archives and microfilms of history.

 

[blackribbon]

However, I know that there were some whites who did have the racist stereotypes of the day about blacks. Racists believe that blacks were childlike, subhuman, and therefore lack intelligence. Were they racists? I don't know because even though there were racists who believed in that doesn't mean that all white Southerners have those same beliefs. Another common belief was that blacks here had it better here than in Africa (Mind you, the book was written in the early 1900s). Naive as the writer's opinions seem to me, it was probably a common thought in the US at the time. To many that point seems rather racist today because, of PC attitudes, and because many of us here in the States have a one-sided view about Africa.

Is this any different than the idea that we should bring modern convenience to Africa right now? Are we acting naively when we bring in huge cranes and dig water wells in areas that lack clean water? Maybe their lives are better left alone? And yet, I know many Afrikan immigrants whom hope one day to take their American educations back to their countries of origin to improve living standards. The real problem is trying to decide if living within slavery with potentially higher living standards (I am not saying our slaves had these) is worth giving up our freedoms for. Our country is having the battle right now and it has nothing to do with racism...how many freedoms are we willing to give up in exchange for "safety" since 9/11? Does one person have the right to smoke or does the next person have the right to not breath smoke filled air? Is it really just that a person is considered an adult at age 18...but isn't considered mature enough to drink alcohol until 21? Should I have the freedom to practice my religion of Christianity while I fight to take away the right of a Muslin or atheist to practice their beliefs? Should black skinned people of today (who have never known a slave or been a slave) be given preferential treatment or a white skinned person (who never owned a slave or knew anyone who did own a slave) just because of past inequalities in our country? Do we reach equality by using reverse inequalities and for how long?

None of these issues are small or isolated.

 

[Lik3]

Is this any different than the idea that we should bring modern convenience to Africa right now? Are we acting naively when we bring in huge cranes and dig water wells in areas that lack clean water? Maybe their lives are better left alone? And yet, I know many Afrikan immigrants whom hope one day to take their American educations back to their countries of origin to improve living standards. The real problem is trying to decide if living within slavery with potentially higher living standards (I am not saying our slaves had these) is worth giving up our freedoms for. Our country is having the battle right now and it has nothing to do with racism...how many freedoms are we willing to give up in exchange for "safety" since 9/11? Does one person have the right to smoke or does the next person have the right to not breath smoke filled air? Is it really just that a person is considered an adult at age 18...but isn't considered mature enough to drink alcohol until 21? Should I have the freedom to practice my religion of Christianity while I fight to take away the right of a Muslin or atheist to practice their beliefs? Should black skinned people of today (who have never known a slave or been a slave) be given preferential treatment or a white skinned person (who never owned a slave or knew anyone who did own a slave) just because of past inequalities in our country? Do we reach equality by using reverse inequalities and for how long?

None of these issues are small or isolated.

No they are not. I guess I should blame the media who are one-sided in my opinion. It only gives a one-sided view of what is really going on in the continent of Africa. While many Africans are victims of war and many are being exploited. Is it about racism? Maybe, but maybe not. I agree about safety, education, and government control. Bush wasn't the worst President we ever had, but he was average at best. While he did keep America safe enough and he seemed to be well meaning when it comes to certain things, he did more damage as far liberties go. I understand to a point why we have a Patriot Act, but as a Conservative, he did expand the government and I didn't agree with his immigration policy. Obama is worse. Whatever failings Bush has created, Obama made it much worse. As far as African immigrants whether they are white, Arab, Berber, Ethiopian, or Nigerian, they tend to do well in the US. Part of it is cultural, not racial. I am saddened that they are not often lauded for their achievements. Will the American public be not interested or are the public in general racists? Don't know, but people of all ethnicities, races, and colors can be racist, prejudiced, or bigoted. Sadly, reparations pose a problem in my eyes.

I am not sure if reparations could repair any damage caused by enslavement, or even the injustices that have occurred during segregation. If we were to have reparations, then how would we go about it? Money? I think that the way that reparations for the enslavement of black people will produce even more controversies. If we were to have any kind of reparations in this country, we need to first start off with teaching our kids history. As I mentioned in another post, the majority of slaves were black and mixed-race. There were whites who were mistreated as well. I am appalled that anyone would be enslaved. BTW, weren't reparations made during Reconstruction when especially newly freed slaves were being grafted into the larger society? Personally, if we were to have reparations, then education would be the best form of reparations. Reparations should never be about black vs. white. It should be about educating our kids especially, so that slavery will not take place. The issue of reparation is way too complex as was the business of slavery and the history of our country.

As far as religious beliefs, you are absolutely right. Religious liberty is part of the law of the Land. I don't think we should take anyone else's right. However, let us look at history for a moment. Two of the biggest offenders of disrespecting and dismantling of religious freedoms are the Catholic Church and Islam. Some brands of Christianity and Islam are violent and have done some demonic things. They do not respect the rights of others to worship as they please. Sadly, many Christians and Muslims are lumped in with people who have no history of other religions but have engaged in murders, forced conversions, expulsions, and torture. Respect of religious freedom is something that can also be taught to our kids, and adults. Also, should there be reparations doled out to Christians and people of other faiths who have been persecuted? Like with slavery, it is too complex, but maybe not.