The Laws of the Universe

Upisoft said:

Before which flood? The one in Japan that recently killed a lot of people?
And BTW, how you can claim you don't know? It seems you know pretty much of what have changed and what not.

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Well, I have my suspicions. But I do not like to claim knowledge, unlike the dumbbells of science so called, who like to come off like all knowing little gods. When the flood is spoken of in a creation evolution forum, try to clue in which one is meant. Isn't it about time for that much??

Hespera said:

they too are way ahead of all the scientists! Cool!
..

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That isn't saying much. Science is so far behind, that it needs a cab to get to a an outdated clue.

dad said:

You cannot overrule the many that saw them. You merely echo doubts and limited experience and knowledge.

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I am stating facts. Don't be mad because you can't show a single angel.

sandwiches said:

I am stating facts. Don't be mad because you can't show a single angel.

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Angels are actually not something we carry in our pockets, and show scoffers for kicks. They decide when to appear, or rather, God decides and they obey.

Dad, an invisible pink unicorn came and told me that the laws of the Universe have always been the same, and there's no such thing as angels.

Prove me wrong.

dad said:

Well, I have my suspicions. But I do not like to claim knowledge, unlike the dumbbells of science so called, who like to come off like all knowing little gods.

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And yet you do -- constantly -- and fail -- constantly.

Doveaman said:

The dinosaur experience in the past appears to have been different from ours today in relation to gravity ...

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Yes I thought about this too, and wondered if the gravity on the earth was different then. And also that there is really no way we can show that this "bumble bee" can "fly" in today's gravity, unless we do a Jurassic Park for real, or maybe I am wrong here.

Ar Cosc said:

The whole solar system would be in a non-equilibrium state, sending planets and moons flying all over the place, for a start ...

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And yes, of course the "vast implications" as pointed out too. But that does not necessarily kills the notion. The objection is valid but so is the present day observation.

What we do not know is really how big an "implication" was it during the Flood. Maybe indeed the implications had not only earthly consequences, but it was a cosmic catastrophe as well. Until we can show that this is not so, we cannot falsify this lower gravity hypothesis. The fantastical is not necessarily false even as the improbable is not the impossible.

dad said:

But I do not like to claim knowledge, unlike the dumbbells of science so called, who like to come off like all knowing little gods.

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You're such a funny guy.

dad said:

Correction...WE know. You know not. We have the records safely passed down, in all security, and care, and precision in a sacred way.
It is not a debate as to whether they are proof...they are. Period. You can lump it or love it, that is your only choices.

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dad said:

Yes we know that a sacred record exists and was verified by witnesses.

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xxx

LanceCohen said:

Yes I thought about this too, and wondered if the gravity on the earth was different then. And also that there is really no way we can show that this "bumble bee" can "fly" in today's gravity, unless we do a Jurassic Park for real, or maybe I am wrong here.



And yes, of course the "vast implications" as pointed out too. But that does not necessarily kills the notion. The objection is valid but so is the present day observation.

What we do not know is really how big an "implication" was it during the Flood. Maybe indeed the implications had not only earthly consequences, but it was a cosmic catastrophe as well. Until we can show that this is not so, we cannot falsify this lower gravity hypothesis. The fantastical is not necessarily false even as the improbable is not the impossible.

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no way we can show that thai"bumble bee" can "fly" in today's gravity.

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are we speaking metaphorically or do you not know that bumblebees fly about just fine despite aeronautical engineers 'proving" they cant?

The objection is valid but so is the present day observation.

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What present day observation is valid? That a dinosaur living today could not stand up? According to one creationist, or according to the SVP (society of vertebrate paleontologists) or anyone with some credentials and credibility?


There was a mammal that rivaled some of the dinosaurs... 30 tons, 18 feet at the shoulder. That is in the same rnage as the famous "brontosaurus" or, Apatosaurus.

They seem to have been able to walk.

What we do not know is really how big an "implication" was it during the Flood.

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Until we can show that this is not so, we cannot falsify this lower gravity hypothesis.

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What makes you think there was a 'flood"? THAT idea has been falsified so many times and ways!

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Hespera said:

are we speaking metaphorically ....

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My "bumble bee" is the dinosaurs. How do we know they can walk in today's gravity? As far as I know, we need to know more than just bones to do that, like muscles and so on, and that is all a matter of guesswork amongst paleontologists today. Of course I will be most glad if you can correct me here.

Hespera said:

What makes you think there was a 'flood"? THAT idea has been falsified so many times and ways!

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Really? I need only one unequivocal falsification. Please do tell.

But even if there was no flood, I am sure you do not know what the solar system or the universe were at the age of the dinosaurs. Any idea, and I wont call it knowledge, you have of the past, particularly the past, is a tentative theory at best, and as Popper have said there only two kinds of theories, false ones and those yet to be proven false.

Ar Cosc said:

Dad, an invisible pink unicorn came and told me that the laws of the Universe have always been the same, and there's no such thing as angels.

Prove me wrong.

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haha. we ignore the pink unicorn and consider your idea a good one.

We may not be able to prove you wrong, but we may be able to come out with an alternate universe where some things may not be the same, eg the speed of light not being a constant in time but still absolute at any time. Then, for example, we can do away with the inelegant inflation at the Big Bang and perhaps even find the Theory of Everything.

Someone need to seriously start working.

LanceCohen said:

My "bumble bee" is the dinosaurs. How do we know they can walk in today's gravity? As far as I know, we need to know more than just bones to do that, like muscles and so on, and that is all a matter of guesswork amongst paleontologists today. Of course I will be most glad if you can correct me here.


Really? I need only one unequivocal falsification. Please do tell.

But even if there was no flood, I am sure you do not know what the solar system or the universe were at the age of the dinosaurs. Any idea, and I wont call it knowledge, you have of the past, particularly the past, is a tentative theory at best, and as Popper have said there only two kinds of theories, false ones and those yet to be proven false.

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My "bumble bee" is the dinosaurs. How do we know they can walk in today's gravity? As far as I know, we need to know more than just bones to do that, like muscles and so on, and that is all a matter of guesswork amongst paleontologists today. Of course I will be most glad if you can correct me here.

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Well there is no reason to think gravity was different, and a lot of reason to think it was not.

Paleontologists dont just "guess". For all that it is hollywood-ized, the forensic people can do an awfully good job of reconstructing a person's appearance in life, from a skull.

But there's more to it than that. How to say in a few words....

The bones are, you could think of them as a photographic negative to the muscles, the positive image. The shape, as in the areas for muscle attachment, the reinforcing along stress lines, the size, all reflect exactly the muscles that operated them. its not an easy study, but its not guesswork at all. The skeletal structure also is very informative as to nervous system and the circulatory system.

I wont go on about it, but that is how it is.

Really? I need only one unequivocal falsification. Please do tell

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lets do two or three...

There is no positive evidence, no trace anywhere in the geological record.
Clear evidence of lesser floods here and there, longer ago than the "flood', but none of the big one.

The polar ice is in annual layers that go back well over a hundred thousand years. That data is not consistent with a biblical flood.

No "genetic bottleneck" in any organism, that would reflect descent from a single pair a few thousand years ago.

I am sure you do not know what the solar system or the universe were at the age of the dinosaurs.

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Well, the milky way takes about what is it, 200 million years to make one complete revolution. Think about that.

This argument "you dont know" is a bit like my saying "you dont know that there is no alien spaceport in the bermuda triangle".

There is no theoretical or empirical (evidence) raeson to think that there was something drastically different. A lot of theoretical reason to think it was not.

Any idea, and I wont call it knowledge, you have of the past, particularly the past, is a tentative theory at best,

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That simply is not so. At best it is a gross overgeneralization.

We know that 2 plus 2 is 4. We know a lot of things.

We know that where I sit now was once covered by glaciers, and earlier, it was a shallow tropical ocean. That is not tentative theory, its something i can take you out and show you.

and as Popper have said there only two kinds of theories, false ones and those yet to be proven false

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Im curious what you think that means.

Read literally, it means that all theories are false. is that your belief?

Oh, and you didnt answer, i really am curious- what makes you think there ever was a flood?

LanceCohen said:

My "bumble bee" is the dinosaurs. How do we know they can walk in today's gravity? As far as I know, we need to know more than just bones to do that, like muscles and so on, and that is all a matter of guesswork amongst paleontologists today. Of course I will be most glad if you can correct me here.


Really? I need only one unequivocal falsification. Please do tell.

But even if there was no flood, I am sure you do not know what the solar system or the universe were at the age of the dinosaurs. Any idea, and I wont call it knowledge, you have of the past, particularly the past, is a tentative theory at best, and as Popper have said there only two kinds of theories, false ones and those yet to be proven false.

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Tentative knowledge you say? Welcome to science.

At any rate, all these words are great and all but is there anything that supports this hypothesis? Any verifiable and demonstrable reason why should assume that gravity or other forces acted differently in the past?

Nostromo said:

You're such a funny guy.

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It should be obvious we know what the scared record says. What we do not know is every detail of creation, and the changes that came after. What the issue was that I said is not known had to do with when the rotation of earth started, and why.

Tiberius said:

And yet they don't.

have you managed to gather even a single shred oif evidence to support your position yet, Dad, or do we still have nothing but your word to support your "but the laws of nature were different in the past! You can't prove they weren't!" schtick?

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False. We have God's word. The accounts of the past and the future preclude the possibility our laws govern there. In a plethora of ways. Even the long lifespans of Sumer, and the spirits of Egypt living among men collaborate this. Nothing opposes it.

Ar Cosc said:

Dad, an invisible pink unicorn came and told me that the laws of the Universe have always been the same, and there's no such thing as angels.
...

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Right. So is that where you confirm your info?

Nathan Poe said:

And yet you do -- constantly -- and fail -- constantly.

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Never. The intance in question has to do with when the rotation of the earth started...I point out it is not known. Try to get a handle on what's going on.

LanceCohen said:

Yes I thought about this too, and wondered if the gravity on the earth was different then. And also that there is really no way we can show that this "bumble bee" can "fly" in today's gravity, unless we do a Jurassic Park for real, or maybe I am wrong here.

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No. The huge flying creatures, and other huge creatures make better sense in a world where our gravity did not exists as is.

It is known that when the spiritual is applied, gravity is overruled totally even in this present time, as evidenced in the miracles in the sacred record. In the future, we will live in a city that is a thousand and a half miles high. One doubts that gravity will apply for us there as well.