Why was there "Law of Moses"? In the book of Romans, it was said that God created this Law so that people will disobey. "Without this Law, nobody will disobey". "This Law is only to remind those who have sinned". But if we don't follow this Law, we might do what is unrighteous. Why did God want us to disobey Him using this Law? Or have i misunderstood the context?
-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The Law
- Thread starter fei.WTH
- Start date
Inspired
only hurts when I breathe
Romans 10
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Here it is saying that the Israelites can be saved but first they must know God and submit to His righteousness. AT the time they did not believe they were sinners.
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[1] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[2] " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[3] " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[4] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[5] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[6]
Here Moses explains that those who believe and confess Jesus is their Lord will be saved. The rest of the scripture talks about the Israelites who hear the message but did not believe.
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[7]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[8] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[9] 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."[10] 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[11] 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."[12]
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Here it is saying that the Israelites can be saved but first they must know God and submit to His righteousness. AT the time they did not believe they were sinners.
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[1] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[2] " (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[3] " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[4] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[5] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[6]
Here Moses explains that those who believe and confess Jesus is their Lord will be saved. The rest of the scripture talks about the Israelites who hear the message but did not believe.
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[7]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[8] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."[9] 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."[10] 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[11] 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."[12]
Upvote
0
"Brethren" that was extremely rude, and very ignorant of the scriptures,and a few other things that I will not mention, but should seem obvious.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
This is perhaps the most horribly translated verse in the "New Testament," and appears this way in almost every edition of Christian Bibles. The phrase "end of the law" should be translated along the lines of, "goal of the Torah," based on what Paul has been discussing to this point. The word "end" in verse 4, is telos in the Greek. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (which is incidentally, a "Protestant" work), correctly states that telos in Romans 10:4, should be defined as, "the final issue or result of a state or process."
Christian translators have instead inserted the ambiguous phrase, "end of the law," to lend support to the false view that Paul taught that the Torah was done away with by Yeshua's work. Some, such as the New English Bible, go as far as saying, "For Christ ends the law and brings righteousness for everyone who has faith."1
Faith in Yeshua does not end the "law" (Romans 3:31, Matthew 5:17-21). Paul has already said in his letter that the Torah witnesses to the righteousness of God. The context of the entire Romans letter to this point and forward, is that if a person was/is following Torah in faith, that person will recognize Yeshua as the Messiah as He is the Torah in the flesh -- the goal of the Torah (refer back to verse 3 above).
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
This is perhaps the most horribly translated verse in the "New Testament," and appears this way in almost every edition of Christian Bibles. The phrase "end of the law" should be translated along the lines of, "goal of the Torah," based on what Paul has been discussing to this point. The word "end" in verse 4, is telos in the Greek. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (which is incidentally, a "Protestant" work), correctly states that telos in Romans 10:4, should be defined as, "the final issue or result of a state or process."
Christian translators have instead inserted the ambiguous phrase, "end of the law," to lend support to the false view that Paul taught that the Torah was done away with by Yeshua's work. Some, such as the New English Bible, go as far as saying, "For Christ ends the law and brings righteousness for everyone who has faith."1
Faith in Yeshua does not end the "law" (Romans 3:31, Matthew 5:17-21). Paul has already said in his letter that the Torah witnesses to the righteousness of God. The context of the entire Romans letter to this point and forward, is that if a person was/is following Torah in faith, that person will recognize Yeshua as the Messiah as He is the Torah in the flesh -- the goal of the Torah (refer back to verse 3 above).
Upvote
0
A Brethren IN CHRIST
Well-Known Member
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the [full experiecial] knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:15 because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is there is no transgression. romans 5:14 goes with my comment
1 tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[read roman 4:15] 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers..
Romans 4:15 because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is there is no transgression. romans 5:14 goes with my comment
1 tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[read roman 4:15] 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers..
Upvote
0
Rafael
Only time enough for love
Rom 10:4 For1063 Christ5547 is the end5056 of the law3551 for1519 righteousness1343 to every one3956 that believeth.4100
Strongs:
G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.
Strongs:
G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.
Upvote
0
leecappella
<font size="3&quot ;>DO
son worshipper: Christian translators have instead inserted the ambiguous phrase, "end of the law," to lend support to the false view that Paul taught that the Torah was done away with by Yeshua's work. Some, such as the New English Bible, go as far as saying, "For Christ ends the law and brings righteousness for everyone who has faith."
me: Just another example of how bible translations can be misleading.
me: Just another example of how bible translations can be misleading.
Upvote
0
Counter possiblity?raphe said:
Original Greek:
Agnoeo (verb) [ 50] Gar [1093] ho [3588] ho [3588] Theos (noun) [2316] Dikaiosune(noun)[1343] Kai [2532] ho [3588] Idios (Adjective) [2398] Dikaiosune(noun) [1343] Zeteo(verb) [2212] Histemi (verb)[2476] ho [3588] Dikaiosune(noun) [1343] ho [3588] Theos (noun) [2316] Ou [3756] Hupotasso (verb)[5293]
Telos(noun)[5056] Gar [1063] Nomos(noun) [3551] Christos(noun) [5547] Eis [1519] Dikaiosune(noun)[1343] Pas [3956] Ho [3588] Pisteuo(verb) [4100]
Aprox. Meanings:
to be ignorant [50] for [1093] this, that(which) [3588] this, that(which) [3588] god [2316] righteousness [1343] and [2532]this [3588] ones selves [2398] righteousness [1343] to seek [2212] stand, set, establish,[2476] this [3588] righteousness [1343] that [3588] God [2316] no [3756] be subject to [5293]
The end[5056] for[1063] the law[1036] Christ [5547], for [1519]
righteousness [1343] in its entirety [3956] which is by [3588]
belief [4100]
Accepted meanings of the statement:
NKJV: said:
NIV: said:
The proposed meaning:
They were ignorant of that which is God righteousness!
([50][1093][3588][3588][2316][1343])
And in such, their own righteousness did they seek and establish.
([2532][3588][2398][1343][2212][2476])
This righteousness, that God is not, is subject to an end.
([3588][1343][2316][3756][5293][5056])
For the law, and Christs righteousness are in entirety, that is true belief.
([1063][1036][5547][1343][3956] [3588] [4100])
Now, I have yet to submit this to the council, but if you could give me early criticisms that would be great.
-Datsar
Upvote
0
Rafael
Only time enough for love
interesting.......but I have to wonder where the simplicity is that we have in Christ when we have to stare at numbers and foreign languages and ask if I'm smart enough. I always thought I was pretty safe using the KJV.DaTsar said:
I reckon there must be a balance to it all, where we don't take the law so lightly that we can just break it with no regard to it or the precious blood obtained at such a painful price for our salvation - or become like the scribes and Pharisees with their straining knats while swallowing camels. Jesus seemed to always be followed and corrected by them for breaking the law.
2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Upvote
0
A Brethren IN CHRIST
Well-Known Member
QUOTE=A Brethren IN CHRISt Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the [full experiecial] knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:15 because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is there is no transgression. romans 5:14 goes with my comment
1 tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[read roman 4:15] 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers..
Galations 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God...romans 4:5, it is evident for, The righteous shall live by faith.
Exodus 34:27....... law was for the nation Israel
1 cor 15:56 O sting of thee death is the OSN and the strength of the OSN is the law.
1 cor 9:21
eph 2:11-12 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and godless in the world
hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never withn those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto mature.
Romans 4:15 because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is there is no transgression. romans 5:14 goes with my comment
1 tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[read roman 4:15] 9 knowing this, that the law is not made for the righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murders of fathers and murders of mothers, for manslayers..
Galations 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God...romans 4:5, it is evident for, The righteous shall live by faith.
Exodus 34:27....... law was for the nation Israel
1 cor 15:56 O sting of thee death is the OSN and the strength of the OSN is the law.
1 cor 9:21
eph 2:11-12 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and godless in the world
hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never withn those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto mature.
Upvote
0
so "sonworshipper", the attachment u posted...those it mean that we need to keep Sabbath.. i thought they said it was not logic...where previously the priest didn't even get out of bed coz its considered doing work!!n i'm still blur...this Law...someone posted b4 saying that it's only for sinners to follow... so u mean if we follow this Law..we're sinning (well not that nobody sins)
Upvote
0
Rafael
Only time enough for love
Fei.with, Christians argue about this and shouldn't in this forum or throw doubt on God's Word with nit-picking the Bible.
Basically, Jesus came and fulfilled the law - completed it with love. If a person loves and follows the two commandments He gave, then they just are not able to break any of the ten commandments. Now this doesn't mean that the law is gone or done away with. The law reveals sin in the flesh. If a person breaks the law, then they just are not truly displaying love towards God or other people envolved in their acts.
This issue on the sabbath is hotly debated in the circle of believers who believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob - so expect some differing opinions about this issue. It is interesting that in America (and alot of the world), both Saturday and Sunday are set aside as days off from work. Studying the Bible for yourself and praying for God's guidance will help you know which day to choose for your worship and obedience to God. Ask people from both camps why they believe the way they do if you please, but you really only need to rely upon God's Word and His Spirit of truth that is able to lead you and keep you.
Here is a link to another answer I gave with scripture references about the law recently: http://www.christianforums.com/t61061
Basically, Jesus came and fulfilled the law - completed it with love. If a person loves and follows the two commandments He gave, then they just are not able to break any of the ten commandments. Now this doesn't mean that the law is gone or done away with. The law reveals sin in the flesh. If a person breaks the law, then they just are not truly displaying love towards God or other people envolved in their acts.
This issue on the sabbath is hotly debated in the circle of believers who believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob - so expect some differing opinions about this issue. It is interesting that in America (and alot of the world), both Saturday and Sunday are set aside as days off from work. Studying the Bible for yourself and praying for God's guidance will help you know which day to choose for your worship and obedience to God. Ask people from both camps why they believe the way they do if you please, but you really only need to rely upon God's Word and His Spirit of truth that is able to lead you and keep you.
Here is a link to another answer I gave with scripture references about the law recently: http://www.christianforums.com/t61061
Upvote
0
Rafael
Only time enough for love
In Jesus day, He was constantly followed and harrassed by the legalists of His day - the scribes (lawyers?) and Pharisees. They did managed to get out of bed and accused Jesus of being a sabbath breaker among other things. Jesus pointed out the difference between things of the Spirt and things of the flesh to them on several occasions in pretty harsh terms. Besides calling them vipers, He also said they were dead on the inside.fei.WTH said:
He gave a good example about love and the law by saying what man would not do the work necessary on sabbath to pull his donkey out of a ditch. LOVE has the precedence over law, in this case, so that the rescue of an animal would be the loving thing to do. How much harm could we do to another in the name of love or of law??? It seems simple enough to me, but Jesus was put to death for indictments brought against Him by these people that hated Him as a law breaker and blasphemer of God. This same kind of hatred and arrogance still exists today, and Jesus said to beware of it.
Upvote
0
- Oct 23, 2003
- 16,711
- 1,132
- 54
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- CA-Conservatives
raphe, forgive me, I'm new here, but would questioning translations throw doubt on the Bible? If that was the case, then no Christian could question anything that didn't make sense to them? Or is questioning behind closed doors better?
The Bible was not written in English, therefore some translations don't make sense. To deny this opens up things that don't need to be opened, like why there are so many different translations of the Bible. The verses that talk about Jesus doing away with the law are incorrect. He came in the fullness of the law, not to fulfill it. Jesus Himself said not the smallest letter shall be removed from the law. We are under a new covenant, I've heard it said, but a new covenant doesn't negate an old one. The law of aerodynamics doesn't do away with the law of gravity, it works with it.
The law is perfect for what God created it for, and it is perfect as it was given by God. God's own finger wrote in the stones Moses had. The law is perfect in showing a person why they are sinners. It can't help change them, it only acts as a mirror. It shuts the mouth of the proud, and breaks the humble.
The Bible was not written in English, therefore some translations don't make sense. To deny this opens up things that don't need to be opened, like why there are so many different translations of the Bible. The verses that talk about Jesus doing away with the law are incorrect. He came in the fullness of the law, not to fulfill it. Jesus Himself said not the smallest letter shall be removed from the law. We are under a new covenant, I've heard it said, but a new covenant doesn't negate an old one. The law of aerodynamics doesn't do away with the law of gravity, it works with it.
The law is perfect for what God created it for, and it is perfect as it was given by God. God's own finger wrote in the stones Moses had. The law is perfect in showing a person why they are sinners. It can't help change them, it only acts as a mirror. It shuts the mouth of the proud, and breaks the humble.
Upvote
0
I agree. you need only look at the sermon on the mount to realise that the law's primary purpose was to provide an awarness of sin. From the beginning it was always going to be Yeshua who provided salvation and the law (and a failure to fulfil it)just amplifies Gods grace. However, we are now FREE (under no condemnation) to obey the law! The law was, is and always will be Gods righteous way of living.
Upvote
0
Yo breteren, how come you dont offer any exposition with your bible quotes? That coupled with your 16th century translation, u just dont make sense! Get a new translation dude...your'e as bad as the muslims with their perfect, elitist attitude translation rubbish. I may aswell be reading spanish over here!
Upvote
0
Rafael
Only time enough for love
I welcome new light shed on scripture, but when a person can't trust the scriptures to speak directly to the common man that has no degree in Greek or Hebrew, I feel suspicious that someone is wanting the scripture to say what they want it to say instead of there really being anything wrong with the translation. Sure, I'm all for amplification of the scriptures and translation into modern language, but not at the expense of supporting one's own pet doctrine. Each group wants the Bible to say what they want it to say. The liberals want it to speak more their way and the legalists want it more to their way of thinking, so the truth remains in the Holy Spirit which is alive.Svt4Him said:
I probably have close to ten Bibles in as many translations and paraphrases, and if the scriptures are rightly divided with the whole of scripture, they say the same thing. Now I don't read Greek and Hebrew other than going to the Strongs concordance and looking at the meaning of the original language. If having a degree and a big oversized head of knowledge is the only way to be saved, then I and lots of common folk are doomed. Ofcourse that isn't what I believe, though. Love and justice are simple enough for the everyday man to understand - in my opinion.
What you say of the law and covenant, I have no dispute, but that is not what I thought this forum was for - if I read the rules for this forum correctly. I figure that questions to Christians was to be no floor of debate, but I guess it is inevitable when there are so many different ideas about grace and law. I believe the simple truths of scripture are clear and powerful in most of the translations, and as sound doctrine becomes less tolerated in the end times, there will be more clamor for watered-down truths and ear tickling. People will be more and more willing to say that scriptures are not reliable and that no one really knows their true meaning in these last days.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
