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The Law

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Tawhano

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fatboys said:
See the difference?

That doesn’t answer my question and you know it. You tell me the old laws were temporary and then expect me to believe that simply changing the punishment makes it a new and better law?
 
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fatboys

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Tawhano said:
That doesn’t answer my question and you know it. You tell me the old laws were temporary and then expect me to believe that simply changing the punishment makes it a new and better law?

FB: I am not sure if I can explain this. The old law taught that if we steal we were to be put to death. The new law says that if we steal then we must repent. If we do not repent we are to be cast out from the membership of the church.

The higher law was restored to us by Christ to over ride the lower law brought by Moses.
 
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Tawhano

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fatboys said:
The higher law was restored to us by Christ to over ride the lower law brought by Moses.

Again, you are avoiding the real crux of the matter. The only difference you can supply between one law and the other is the punishment. That doesn’t fit the description we are given about the old covenant being fulfilled by Christ and therefore replaced with the new covenant.
 
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Doc T

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Tawhano said:
Again, you are avoiding the real crux of the matter. The only difference you can supply between one law and the other is the punishment. That doesn’t fit the description we are given about the old covenant being fulfilled by Christ and therefore replaced with the new covenant.

The difference perhaps, Tawhano, is that we believe that the 10 commandments were not part of the Law, but were part of the Everlasting covenant that God had established with his people, even prior to Moses. That is why they are found in Section 42 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Doc

~
 
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gort

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The difference perhaps, Tawhano, is that we believe that the 10 commandments were not part of the Law, but were part of the Everlasting covenant that God had established with his people, even prior to Moses. That is why they are found in Section 42 of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Doc

That's interesting. Perhaps FB was alluding to this earlier in this thread regarding Abram and the laws Abram lived under. However, the Bible tells us that Abrams parents served other gods. And until God called Abram away from all that he knew, Abram also prolly served these other gods.

Can you clarify please?

thanx

<><
 
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fatboys

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daneel said:
That's interesting. Perhaps FB was alluding to this earlier in this thread regarding Abram and the laws Abram lived under. However, the Bible tells us that Abrams parents served other gods. And until God called Abram away from all that he knew, Abram also prolly served these other gods.

Can you clarify please?

thanx

<><

FB: Abraham's parents were pagans, and his own father tried to kill him as a sacrifice, but Abraham was taught the gospel of Christ. From Adam to Moses prophets were taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now of course they could not teach the sacrament for example, but they were taught a form of it in that they sacrificed the firstlings of a flock without blemish. This is what got Cain into trouble. Not that his sacrifice of the field was not without merit, it was not what the Lord had asked for. As humans we have such short memories. These symbolic ordinances were to remind them what what was to happen in the future for their salvation. The sacrament now reminds us of what is to happened for our salvation in the past.

Daneel thanks
 
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Tawhano

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Doc T said:
The difference perhaps, Tawhano, is that we believe that the 10 commandments were not part of the Law, but were part of the Everlasting covenant that God had established with his people, even prior to Moses.

Why didn’t fatboys say that? It’s funny but every post I ever participated in about this subject I never once read anyone stating that was your church’s belief. How many of the others would agree with that statement I wonder? Somehow Doc T, I don’t think you are being straight with me on this.

At any rate, the Bible is clear that the Ten Commandments was in fact the covenant that God made with Israel. The Bible is also clear that the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant.

Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Why would the everlasting covenant be done away with?
 
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gort

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FB: Abraham's parents were pagans, and his own father tried to kill him as a sacrifice, but Abraham was taught the gospel of Christ. From Adam to Moses prophets were taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now of course they could not teach the sacrament for example, but they were taught a form of it in that they sacrificed the firstlings of a flock without blemish. This is what got Cain into trouble. Not that his sacrifice of the field was not without merit, it was not what the Lord had asked for. As humans we have such short memories. These symbolic ordinances were to remind them what what was to happen in the future for their salvation. The sacrament now reminds us of what is to happened for our salvation in the past.

We could probably start another thread regarding these things, but for now, where do you get this info? The bible does'nt say that Terah tried to sacrifice Abram.

<><
 
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Doc T

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Tawhano said:
Why didn’t fatboys say that? It’s funny but every post I ever participated in about this subject I never once read anyone stating that was your church’s belief. How many of the others would agree with that statement I wonder? Somehow Doc T, I don’t think you are being straight with me on this.

Are you accusing me of lying to you? I think that is what fatboy was trying to say, but perhaps did not say it as directly as I did. Ask him, or Ammon or any other of the LDS on this board.

Tawhano said:
At any rate, the Bible is clear that the Ten Commandments was in fact the covenant that God made with Israel. The Bible is also clear that the old covenant was replaced by the new covenant.

Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

All I see is prooftexting. I see nothing there that states that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

Tawhano said:
Why would the everlasting covenant be done away with?

That is my point. The sacrifices, performances etc, that made of the Law were done away, but the 10 commandments were part of an everlasting covenant that is/was not done away.

Doc

~
 
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fatboys

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Doc T said:
Are you accusing me of lying to you? I think that is what fatboy was trying to say, but perhaps did not say it as directly as I did. Ask him, or Ammon or any other of the LDS on this board.



All I see is prooftexting. I see nothing there that states that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.



That is my point. The sacrifices, performances etc, that made of the Law were done away, but the 10 commandments were part of an everlasting covenant that is/was not done away.

Doc

~

FB: I tried every way I could to try and explain it to you. Every LDS understood what I was trying to say. I know that my language skills are not the best. Sorry
 
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GOD'S ARMY

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From "The Law after Christ," by Stephen E. Robinson, Ensign, Sept. 1983

.....And yet it is vital to note that in the teaching of Jesus, the Law was not revoked nor repealed but fulfilled. (Matt 5:17.) Under the gospel of Christ, murder, adultery, and dishonesty are still prohibited, and the formal requirements of the Law are still essentially in place; but the demand of the Law of Moses has been expanded, has been filled to its fullest extent. Where there is no hatred or greed, there can be no murder; where there is no lust, there can be no adultery. With the coming of Christ, the ethical portion of the Law had not been abolished; it had been caught up by, included in, and expanded to a broader application its intention, its potential as an ethical standard, had been fulfilled.

The ceremonial portions of the Law, however, were fulfilled in a different way. These were not moral or ethical rules which could be transformed into broader principles, but were what Abinadi and Alma called “performances”—rituals that symbolically prefigured coming historical events. (Mosiah 13:30; Alma 25:15.) For example, animal sacrifice prefigured the future sacrifice of the Savior, the Lamb of God. But when the events prefigured actually occurred, they could no longer be anticipated; they could only be remembered.

After the atonement of Christ, the anticipation of the event found in the Law was replaced by the remembrance of the event which is part of the gospel. Thus those parts of the Law which anticipated the atonement of Christ were fulfilled in the events of the atonement and had an end, just as a prophecy is said to be fulfilled when the event prophesied takes place. (See Luke 22:37.) In this way, neither the moral nor the ceremonial portions of the Law of Moses were undone or abolished. Both were fulfilled, the former by being included in the broader principles of the gospel which replaced them, and the latter by finding realization in the events which they had prefigured......

......Paul, the great Apostle to the gentiles, like Peter knew that the Law of Moses had been fulfilled in the gospel of Christ and that it was not necessary for gentiles to live it. So, naturally, when Judaizers came into his mission field and began to preach the necessity of the Law to the churches he had established, Paul resisted them. Out of this struggle over the Law came the New Testament epistles to the Galatians and Romans, and at least parts of Colossians and 1 and 2 Corinthians, all of which were intended to drive home the point that as a means of salvation the Law of Moses was obsolete.

Paul’s famous response to the question of the Law is found most forcefully stated in the epistle to the Galatians, who were in danger of adopting the Law of Moses:

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. …

“For if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” (Gal. 2:16, 21.)

In other words, if living the Law of Moses and observing its “performances” could justify us before God, then the atoning death of the Savior would have been unnecessary. But as it is, Christians—both Jewish and Gentile—seek to be justified through faith in Christ.

Paul’s logic in support of his position is simple and direct. First, he shows that righteousness is obtainable without the Law of Moses. He uses the example of Abraham, who lived centuries before the Law was even given to Moses, yet who, even without the Law, was still accounted righteous through his faith. (See Gal. 3:7-9.) If Abraham could be counted righteous because of his faith, then those who follow his example can also be accounted righteous through their faith—even (like Abraham) without the Law of Moses.

Next Paul points out that the Old Testament itself declares that “the just shall live by faith” rather than by the Law. (Gal. 3:11, quoting Hab. 2:4.) Paul then goes on to show that, in fact, righteousness is not possible by the Law of Moses alone. He points out that those who would rely on the Law for justification, instead of on the atonement of Christ, must keep the Law perfectly, for the Law of Moses provides no means of atonement for intentional sins. Rather, it curses those who fail to live it perfectly:

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” (Gal. 3:10, quoting Deut. 27:26.)

In other words, Paul saw the Law of Moses as an all-or-nothing contract. In order for a Jew to be theoretically “just” as far as the demands of the Old Testament Law were concerned, he would have to live the entire Law perfectly. If he were to fail in the smallest detail to live all the precepts of the Law, he would fall under the curse of the Law and under the power of sin. (See Gal. 3:10-13, 21-22.) Of course, even if he could live the whole Law perfectly, he would still need the principles and ordinances of the gospel in order to receive exaltation in the kingdom of God. Thus, according to Paul, one reason why the Law of Moses fails as a means of justification is that the Law lacks the power to forgive or redeem those who fail to live its precepts; it can only accuse them. Human beings need more than just a rule-book; we also need a means of gaining forgiveness when we break the rules. We need repentance; we need redemption; we need atonement—and these can only come through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

As hard as it was for Judaizers to accept the end of the Law of Moses, there were those in the ancient Church who went to the other extreme. These people have been called “antinomians,” and they believed that the end of the Law gave them license to do as they pleased as long as they professed a belief in Christ. Some went so far as to claim that Christians, who were no longer bound by the Law of Moses, were even under an obligation to behave contrary to the commands of the Law. (See Rom. 6:15.) Particularly among the gentile churches, a misunderstanding of Paul’s teachings about the end of the Law of Moses caused some to believe that for Christians all laws and rules had been abolished. By distorting the scriptures, the antinomians were able to reject the demands of the Law without accepting the demands of the gospel. In the New Testament the epistles of James, Jude, 2 Peter, and 1 Corinthians deal in part with this error. James shows that belief without proper behavior and commitment is not enough for salvation. (See James 2.) The gospel does not destroy the Law, but is itself a new law which incorporates and fulfills the old—a higher law certainly, but a law nonetheless, and one which must be obeyed. It is likely that Peter is referring to antinomians when he condemns those who distort the teachings of Paul, “in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” (2 Pet. 3:16.)

Of course, both ancient tendencies can still be found among the modern Christian churches. There are modern Judaizers who insist, for example, that the Sabbath be observed according to the Law of Moses, on the seventh day (Saturday) rather than on Sunday. There are also modern antinomians who insist that a mere statement of belief in Christ guarantees salvation regardless of one’s subsequent behavior. In each case the cause of the error is the same—both the antinomian and the Judaizer fail to understand the fulfillment of the Law of Moses in Christ. The one fails to realize that the Law has not been revoked or destroyed; the other fails to realize that it has been fulfilled in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and in the principles of his gospel. As Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matt. 5:17.)
 
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Tawhano

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Doc T said:
Are you accusing me of lying to you? I think that is what fatboy was trying to say, but perhaps did not say it as directly as I did. Ask him, or Ammon or any other of the LDS on this board.

The question is open to them. I noticed you don’t try and back up your claim with your scriptures. Why is that?

Doc T said:
All I see is prooftexting. I see nothing there that states that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of Moses.

Oops, my bad. It isn’t Exodus 34:29 but 28. Notice I said it was the covenant and you misquoted me as saying it was the Law of Moses. Why is that?

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
 
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Tawhano

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GOD'S ARMY said:
From "The Law after Christ," by Stephen E. Robinson, Ensign, Sept. 1983

So, you're saying that because this Robinson fellow says it is true then it is? Sorry but it isn't official doctrine is it? All you supplied was somebody's bias opinion about a subject you believe solely because someone else said it was true.

P.S. Why don't you try and address the scriptures I provided in my first post?
 
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Fit4Christ

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fatboys said:
FB: I am not sure if I can explain this. The old law taught that if we steal we were to be put to death. The new law says that if we steal then we must repent. If we do not repent we are to be cast out from the membership of the church.

The higher law was restored to us by Christ to over ride the lower law brought by Moses.

You are also supposed to restore or make restitution, aren't you? You may repent, but you are not forgiven until you have fully paid for your crime (by restitution, jail time, etc.), isn't that correct?
 
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GOD'S ARMY

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Tawhano said:
So, you're saying that because this Robinson fellow says it is true then it is? Sorry but it isn't official doctrine is it? All you supplied was somebody's bias opinion about a subject you believe solely because someone else said it was true.

P.S. Why don't you try and address the scriptures I provided in my first post?

What is there to address? I agree with them and even some of your commentary. You lose me when you assume that you know what is meant by the covenant being written on the hearts of believers.

There is great symbolism in the old law being etched in stone and the new in the hearts of the followers of Christ, although I too don't believe it is merely symbolic. To me the great question for the all-knowing Tawhano is what is the content of the new covenant? Can you explain it? Can it be put to paper or should I just take your word for it that you know?

I found and posted what I did last night because it touched on some things I was trying to say previously and explained them better than I could. This time instead of discounting it as one man's opinion maybe you could look it up at lds dot org and read the entire piece to see our view...and yes I would go so far as to call it the LDS view. Then read the referenced scriptures and see what is really being said and from where it comes. You don't have to agree with it...I know you won't, but instead of acting frustrated with my obvious inferiority to you, why don't you try to do a little less condescending and a little more listening.
 
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GOD'S ARMY

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Fit4Christ said:
You are also supposed to restore or make restitution, aren't you? You may repent, but you are not forgiven until you have fully paid for your crime (by restitution, jail time, etc.), isn't that correct?

If you are not willing to own the sin and own up to it you have not repented.
 
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Doc T

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Tawhano said:
The question is open to them. I noticed you don’t try and back up your claim with your scriptures. Why is that?

Because I had assumed that you had read section 42 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Try verses 12-14

Tawhano said:
Oops, my bad. It isn’t Exodus 34:29 but 28. Notice I said it was the covenant and you misquoted me as saying it was the Law of Moses. Why is that?

I'm sorry, but I don't see where I quoted you. I did use the phrase "the 10 commandments are not part of the Law of Moses", but that was not a quotation of you, but my understanding of what you were stating. Is not the Law of Moses the "old covenant"?

Tawhano said:
Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

I would simply interprete this verse using the term covenant as refering to the everlasting covenant (the gospel) and not to the Law of Moses.

My appologies if what I am saying is not clear to you, as we obviously have differing understandings of what happened around the time of Moses.

Doc

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Tawhano

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GOD'S ARMY said:
What is there to address? I agree with them and even some of your commentary. You lose me when you assume that you know what is meant by the covenant being written on the hearts of believers.

Then address that part where I lose you so that I can explain it better. I don’t understand how you can say you agree with them and not see the problem with your views on the laws.

GOD'S ARMY said:
To me the great question for the all-knowing Tawhano is what is the content of the new covenant? Can you explain it? Can it be put to paper or should I just take your word for it that you know?

Is it that I am all knowing or is it that you know little? The new covenant in a nutshell:

1 John 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

GOD'S ARMY said:
This time instead of discounting it as one man's opinion maybe you could look it up at lds dot org and read the entire piece to see our view...

Actually I did and I believe I may have even commented on it last year on this thread somewhere.

GOD'S ARMY said:
but instead of acting frustrated with my obvious inferiority to you,

I’m not acting, I am frustrated. My questions aren’t being addressed. I am getting the old song and dance routine. If you don’t know the answers then don’t try and make something up.

GOD'S ARMY said:
why don't you try to do a little less condescending and a little more listening.

Heed your own advice.
 
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