The law of some churchs verses the teaching of Paul

[MamaZ]

I took this from another thread so I would not derail it.. It was told to me that many priests cannot marry due to the fact of the Law not of God but of certain leaders.. This has always puzzled me as to why they are forebidden to marry.. As I read in scripture the teaching of Paul I want to understand this more.. Here is the scripture.
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 in lying speakers in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods, which God created for partaking with thanksgiving by the believers and those knowing the truth.
1Ti 4:4 Because every creature of God is good, and nothing to be thrust away, but having been received with thanksgiving;
1Ti 4:5 for through God's Word and supplication it is sanctified.

 

[Yarddog]

I took this from another thread so I would not derail it.. It was told to me that many priests cannot marry due to the fact of the Law not of God but of certain leaders.. This has always puzzled me as to why they are forebidden to marry.. As I read in scripture the teaching of Paul I want to understand this more.. Here is the scripture.
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 in lying speakers in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods, which God created for partaking with thanksgiving by the believers and those knowing the truth.
1Ti 4:4 Because every creature of God is good, and nothing to be thrust away, but having been received with thanksgiving;
1Ti 4:5 for through God's Word and supplication it is sanctified.

It would help to know what Church you refer to. As for the Catholic Church it is a choice for the priests though there are some married priests.

Do you think Paul refusing to marry fits these verses?

 

[MamaZ]

It would help to know what Church you refer to. As for the Catholic Church it is a choice for the priests though there are some married priests.

Do you think Paul refusing to marry fits these verses?

I don't believe that it is only the CC that has this rule. I may be wrong though. Paul had the gift of celebacy as we read from his teachings. I have met others with this gift. But when it is imposed on people then it is not a gift but a rule or law.

 

[Albion]

I don't believe that it is only the CC that has this rule. I may be wrong though. Paul had the gift of celebacy as we read from his teachings. I have met others with this gift. But when it is imposed on people then it is not a gift but a rule or law.

As was said before, this is a regulation made by the RCC around the year AD1000. It is not 'imposed' on any Catholic. Paul was speaking of marriage in general and of the institution of marriage. The RCC certainly does not prohibit marriage.

But it does set a number of standards for men seeking ordination in the Latin rite--but not other RCC rites--in the church. If a man wants to adhere to them voluntarily, that's his choice. ALMOST EVERY OTHER DENOMINATION sets some, also, which are not Biblical requirements. Where, for instance, does the idea come from that a candidate for the ministry has to have graduated from a seminary?

The only 'church' that comes to mind immediately as having prohibited marriage would be the Shakers. So if you want to say that they are going against what Paul taught, I'd probably agree.

 

[MamaZ]

Wow I have never head of the shakers. To be ordained or carry the title of priest in some churchs they have to volunteer to not marry.. If they do not volunteer to not marry then they will not be viable for being a clergyman.. This as Paul shows us is not of God.. It is of deceiving Spirits.. This is why it concerns me greatly.

 

[Albion]

Wow I have never head of the shakers.

My goodness. I'm surprised.

To be ordained or carry the title of priest in some churchs they have to volunteer to not marry

I can't think of a one other than the RCC.

But even there, there's no prohibition against marriage. If you don't want to be celibate, you don't have to apply to be ordained in that one particular rite. You are eligible for other RCC rites, though, so it's not even the case that we can say that this one lone church forbids its priests to marry.

This as Paul shows us is not of God.. It is of deceiving Spirits.. This is why it concerns me greatly.

It's not what Paul was speaking of. Don't let it bother you.

 

[Yarddog]

I don't believe that it is only the CC that has this rule. I may be wrong though. Paul had the gift of celebacy as we read from his teachings. I have met others with this gift. But when it is imposed on people then it is not a gift but a rule or law.

Celibacy is not "imposed" on anyone in the Catholic Church. It is a free choice of Catholic priest. A man seeking to join the priesthood is fully aware that the CC does not allow priests to marry but a married man can become a priest.

There is nothing in the practice of the CC that matches the verses which you give. If there is a church which mandates celibacy for its members, then that church or cult would.

 

[MamaZ]

So then if a man were a priest and then came to understand His need for a wife would he have to give up his clergy duties? I understand that this is the law for a church. But does this law line up with the Apostles teachings? Was Peter Married? Why would a law be imposed upon men to whom even the very Aposltes did not place upon others?

 

[Albion]

So then if a man were a priest and then came to understand His need for a wife would he have to give up his clergy duties?

As a Roman Catholic priest, yes.

I understand that this is the law for a church. But does this law line up with the Apostles teachings? Was Peter Married? Why would a law be imposed upon men to whom even the very Aposltes did not place upon others?

For order in the church. Having a family was thought to be such an obligation that it might compete for the time a priest needs for the congregation. There was also a concern about men attempting to position their own sons for advancement in the church (a genuine concern easily proven by histori and also by looking at who takes over the TV ministries of most of the well-known evangelical preachers we have become familiar with in recent years).

And there were some concerns that might have been more valid a thousand years ago that don't seem that way today. The RCC is constantly challenged to change its rule about clerical celibacy, and it could do so at any time.

Interestingly, Anglican priests who convert to Roman Catholicism and are married, are allowed to be priests in the RCC and not alter their relationships with their wives.

But does this law line up with the Apostles teachings? Was Peter Married? Why would a law be imposed upon men to whom even the very Aposltes did not place upon others?

Sure. Peter is speaking of an actual prohibition against marriage, not asking for anyone to remain unmarried by choice. Now to be sure, I agree with my own church's position which holds that it's not a good idea, not natural, and not really needed...but I don't feel that the RCC violates Paul's teaching.

 

[MamaZ]

See this is where I don't understand how they do not violate Pauls teaching. I understand the reasons to why they do this. I really do.. But the fact remains that a man interested in the clergy should not have rules appointed to him that are different than what the Apostles teach.. Paul did not nor did Peter ever teach that a man of the clergy could not be a married man..What is Paul teaching in the scripture that has been quoted.. Can we discuss the scripture and the fullness of it?

 

[Yarddog]

So then if a man were a priest and then came to understand His need for a wife would he have to give up his clergy duties?

A man seeking the priesthood goes through years of study and prayer seeking to understand his calling. He does not go blindly into this calling. He can at anytime choose another path. If he finds that God has called him into celibacy then he takes the vow "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

I understand that this is the law for a church.

I'm not sure that "law" describes the "practice". As I have said, a married man can become a priest.

But does this law line up with the Apostles teachings?

Yes.

Was Peter Married?

Jesus was not. Paul was not. Peter was also married before Jesus called him as were the other married apostles. Though John lived to be an old man, I know of no record of him being married.

Why would a law be imposed upon men to whom even the very Aposltes did not place upon others?

Men and women are called into holy orders. Some choose celibacy and others do not. Either way, they still serve God as each feels that God has called. The CC does not impose celibacy on anyone. It is always a free choice.

 

[MamaZ]

A man seeking the priesthood goes through years of study and prayer seeking to understand his calling. He does not go blindly into this calling. He can at anytime choose another path. If he finds that God has called him into celibacy then he takes the vow "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

I'm not sure that "law" describes the "practice". As I have said, a married man can become a priest.

Yes.

Jesus was not. Paul was not. Peter was also married before Jesus called him as were the other married apostles. Though John lived to be an old man, I know of no record of him being married.

Men and women are called into holy orders. Some choose celibacy and others do not. Either way, they still serve God as each feels that God has called. The CC does not impose celibacy on anyone. It is always a free choice.

It is only a free choice if one does not feel lead to be an overseer. If one is led to be an overseer then they have to choose to not marry..

 

[Yarddog]

What is Paul teaching in the scripture that has been quoted.. Can we discuss the scripture and the fullness of it?

1 Corinthians 7:
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva] 6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command. 7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.[/FONT]

So, if a priest desires to be as Paul was, celibate, then is he wrong?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I took this from another thread so I would not derail it.. It was told to me that many priests cannot marry due to the fact of the Law not of God but of certain leaders.. This has always puzzled me as to why they are forebidden to marry.. As I read in scripture the teaching of Paul I want to understand this more.. Here is the scripture.
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, cleaving to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 in lying speakers in hypocrisy, being seared in their own conscience,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods, which God created for partaking with thanksgiving by the believers and those knowing the truth.
1Ti 4:4 Because every creature of God is good, and nothing to be thrust away, but having been received with thanksgiving;
1Ti 4:5 for through God's Word and supplication it is sanctified.

Beware the circumcision and proselyzers of the Law

#2967 used 23 times in NT. This form of it used 2 times.

1 Timo 4:3 Forbidding/kwluontwn <2967> (5723) to be marrying to be obstaining of foods which the God creates into *partaking with thanksgiving to the ones believing and having known the truth

1 Thess 2:16 Forbidding/kwluontwn <2967> (5723) us to the nations to speak that they may be being saved, into the to fill-up of them the sins always, outstrips yet on them the wrath into an end.

2967. koluo from the base of 2849; to estop, i.e. prevent (by word or act):--forbid, hinder, keep from, let, not suffer, withstand.

 

[MamaZ]

1 Corinthians 7:
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command. 7 Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.[/FONT]

So, if a priest desires to be as Paul was, celibate, then is he wrong?

Paul tells us this.. Each man has his own gift from God.. Now if a man is celibate because this is a gift then by all means.. But if man does not have this gift of celibacy and feels led to be and overseer why should a law force this man to keep celebate if he wants to be an overseer? Paul says that to keep fornication in check the marry.. We have seen such in some churchs.. and not all just the cc... It has been seen in other churchs as well..

 

[revanneosl]

Now if a man is celibate because this is a gift then by all means.. But if man does not have this gift of celibacy and feels led to be an overseer why should a law force this man to keep celebate if he wants to be an overseer?

Try thinking about it this way MamaZ. If a woman does not have the gift of masculinity, and still feels led to be an overseer, should the law force her to become a man in order to answer the leading of God?

 

[steve4.truth]

Interesting verse on this discussion: Titus1:6. One of the qualifications for an overseer or elder is "Husband of one wife"..."having believing children..." How can this be explained? It seems that any religion that requires celibacy for an overseer is unconcerned about God's view of the matter as expressed here.

 

[Yarddog]

Paul tells us this.. Each man has his own gift from God.. Now if a man is celibate because this is a gift then by all means.. But if man does not have this gift of celibacy and feels led to be and overseer why should a law force this man to keep celebate if he wants to be an overseer? Paul says that to keep fornication in check the marry.. We have seen such in some churchs.. and not all just the cc... It has been seen in other churchs as well..

Okay, then you agree that priests who choose celibacy because they are called to it is scripturally sound. So what is the problem? A man who wants to serve God but is not called to celibacy can do so as a deacon. Both are blessed by God for their service. Priests and deacons have no problem with this so why do some non-Catholics? Your Church can do as they please just as some Eastern Rite Catholics.

There is nothing in scripture that does not allow the Church to do this.

 

[MamaZ]

Try thinking about it this way MamaZ. If a woman does not have the gift of masculinity, and still feels led to be an overseer, should the law force her to become a man in order to answer the leading of God?

Scripture does not forbid an overseer from being married. But scripture does teach us about who is to be an overseer and it is not a woman.. LOL

 

[Albion]

See this is where I don't understand how they do not violate Pauls teaching. I understand the reasons to why they do this. I really do.. But the fact remains that a man interested in the clergy should not have rules appointed to him that are different than what the Apostles teach.?

I appreciate your point. Of course, I don't think that requiring a man to take a vow of celibacy is a good idea. Even if we sympathized with the Roman Church's reasons a thousand years ago, today the RCC would be much better off rescinding that decision. But I don't personally think that it goes against Paul's teaching since marriage is not, in fact, forbidden. It's just that the RCC has decided to take into the priesthood only those men who voluntarily choose NOT to marry. To me, this is not akin to 'forbidding.'