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The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

Zao is life

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Thank you for your post and for your points.

The New Covenant does not invalidate the Word of God. It re-affirms it (see Jeremiah 31:31-33). That's why Paul said,

Gal 3:19, 21-24 "Why then the Law? It was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to those to whom it had been promised, being ordained through angels in the Mediator's hand.

Is the Law then against the promises of God? Let it not be said! For if a law had been given which could have given life, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law. But the Scripture shut up all under sin, so that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept under Law, having been shut up to the faith about to be revealed. So that the Law has become a trainer of us until Christ, that we might be justified by faith."


Nothing you say or which you quote changes the fact that Jesus and Paul made a summation of all the law, making it abundantly clear what laws they regarded as moral and eternally applicable, and how those laws were fulfilled only by Christ, and how they can be produced as CHRIST'S fruit only in those who abide in Christ and live by faith in Him and in His righteousness.

This thread is therefore not controversial Christian theology - but now I can say tongue-in-cheek that after your post, I can see that it's just as well I posted the thread in the "Controversial Christian Theology" forum!
 
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Zao is life

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I agree and Jesus tells us how the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled by making the statement that all the Law and the prophets hang on two commandments, and Paul repeats what Jesus said earlier when he makes the same summation.

PS: The law regrading observances of days, months, new moons, feasts and sabbaths are not included in the Law Jesus and Paul teach us to obey.

I also can't understand why people feel they have to point out that when Jesus was talking about love for neighbor and for the brethren He was not talking about eros. It should be obvious to all He was not talking about that. Real love is pointing out to your brothers and sisters where they are at fault, even if it hurts. Real love is caring about and for people. It has nothing to do with eros. James gives us examples of real love when he talks about how works being produced by faith translates into actually helping those in need instead of just telling them to "go well, have faith and be fed", and how it translates into bridling the tongue, etc.
 
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Zao is life

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Well, the LORD does say the Old Covenant is "forever", right? And Jesus says not one part of the Law shall pass away. So, to me this means it is "forever".

It could only be forever if both parties to the covenant were faithful to their vows forever. God's elect promised to obey ALL that the LORD had commanded, and to be obedient, but they were not. So the covenant was broken by the "wife", and if the covenant was broken, so were all its commandments.

We forget that at first the ten commandments written by the finger of God on the tablets were smashed by Moses - the covenant was broken before it even started. But Moses interceded for the elect people and so God reconstituted the covenant - but with the exception of Joshua and Caleb, the entire generation of people who entered the wilderness perished in the wilderness. Only the children born in the wilderness entered the promised land - under the leadership of Joshua, who is a Biblical type of Jesus.

All these are types: Moses died in the wilderness and was not permitted to cross the Jordan, showing that the way into the Kingdom of God is not through obedience to Law (because the elect could not, and did not obey it) but by Christ, who could, and did obey it.

So I agree with what you say below, and you mention a very important point also which I have enlarged in your text:

 
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Zao is life

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Except that he never taught us to obey Torah. He obeyed Torah on our behalf, taught us what it means, died for our transgressions, rose again from the dead and instructed us to abide in Him so that His fruit can be produced in us who walk not according to the flesh's attempts at obedience to Torah, but according to the Spirit.

Since Yahshua is the living Torah, you need to OBEY HIM.
 
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Swag365

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This seems like an interesting topic but there is a lot of information to absorb all at once. Is it possible to summarize the overall point you desire to make, in a paragraph or two?
 
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expos4ever

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Why would the Most High renege on His agreements? Why would the Most High make law "unfit" for man?
You are framing this issue in a somewhat slanted manner. I could equally well ask this question: Why would the Most High not be able to undertake a plan for redemption of the cosmos that entails particular stages that have both a beginning and an end?

I suggest that, framed this way, it is not at all hard to understand why the Law of Moses has been retired.
 
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expos4ever

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There are a number of problems here. First, a clarification: When the author of 1 John declares that sin is "lawlessness", you cannot simply assume that the "law" in question is the Law of Moses.

Here are your problems:

1. James 2:10-11 does not define sin as breaking any one of the 10 commandments:

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

All the author is claiming here is that if you violate one element of the Law of Moses, you are a transgressor of the Law of Moses. It certainly does not logically following that sin is defined exclusively relative to the Law of Moses.

2. Romans 14:23, equally, does not support the notion that sin is only defined relative to the Law of Moses. Here is the text:


But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Where do you get the idea that sin is being defined relative to the Law of Moses?

3. Romans 7:7 does indeed connect knowledge of sin to the Law of Moses, but Paul is talking about the past:

I would not have come to know sin except through the Law...

Paul quite clearly looks to the Spirit now, not the Law as he did in the past.
 
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expos4ever

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The fact of the NT is the OT laws and precepts are frequently and repeatedly applied to the NT ekklesia, both the Jewish convert and the Gentile.
The fact that Paul occasionally obeys the Law of Moses can be explained by:

1. Pragmatics: even if he believes, as I am sure that he does, that the time of the Law is over, he does not want to offend his fellow Jews.

2. Timing: while Paul does indeed believe the Law is coming to an end, it's end is marked out in time by the very recent work of Jesus: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Given that this has just happened, there is a confusing transition period and, for practical reasons, Paul sometimes defers to the Law of Moses.

I am not sure I understand your "justification" and "righteousness" argument: For Paul, I believe these two concepts cash out to the same thing. And even if they don't I don't see how this distinction bears on the matter of whether the Law still applies.

Yes, Paul and James appeal to the Old Testament. But I see no texts where they indicate that the Law of Moses still applies going forward.
 
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expos4ever

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The fact that all scripture is inspired by God and is useful does not mean every command and edict applies eternally. Scripture presents an evolving redemption narrative - things change. Surely you believe in the "old covenant - new covenant" distinction? Well, if we used your "all scripture is inspired...." text the way you are using it against my position, such a distinction would dissolve. IOW, using your implied argument, someone could say that all the provisions of the old covenant remain in force since "ALL Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"

Surely you don't believe this, do you?
 
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expos4ever

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This seems like an interesting topic but there is a lot of information to absorb all at once. Is it possible to summarize the overall point you desire to make, in a paragraph or two?
While this question was not directed at me, let me try to very concisely summarize my take on why the Law of Moses is now retired.

The Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only (this is abundantly clear even though some will vigorously deny it) as part of a grand redemption plan. That plan reached its climax at the Cross, hence the Law of Moses is no longer needed. And the guiding role that the Law played is now the role of the Holy Spirit.
 
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expos4ever

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Context and knowledge of how the Jews used cosmic imagery imagery is needed:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

As I have argued in detail elsewhere, the Israelite culture was such that "end of the world" language was often used as a metaphor for socio-political change. So while a literal reading supports the notion of an eternal law, a Biblically-informed reading does not. This will always be covered up by those with an agenda to cast Jesus as declaring that the Law will still apply going forward.

And, interestingly, what does Jesus declare on the cross?

"It is finished"

To the attentive reader, the connection to "until all is accomplished" (above) should be an "a-ha" moment.

Now then, why does Jesus then advocate obedience to the Law in verse 19? Well, the Law has not yet come to an end until the Cross where Jesus declares "it is finished".

In someone else's words, Jesus is saying this: Far from wanting to set aside the law and the prophets, it is my role to bring into being that to which they have pointed forward, to carry them on into a new era of fulfillment.
 
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Adamina

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Interesting post and I would say it is controversial and can be very complicated, especially for newer Christians [along with Jews] coming to Christ.

Luke 16 has a rather interesting parable concerning a Richman and Lazarus.
[Lazarus is only mentioned in Luke and John of the Gospels]

What is different about this parable/story is that it mentions actually names.
Along with the already mentioned names, it includes Moses [OC Law] and Abraham [NC Grace].

Without going into too much detail about it and derailing the thread, it has been viewed as "covenantal"......Law[Moses] vs Grace[Abraham/Jesus]. Have you and/or others notice that?


Here A Little, There A Little - Here a little, there a little - Index


We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:[/quote]

LUKE 16:
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day."

23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosom of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down my tongue, that I am being anquished in this flame".
29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' "
==================================
The author of this site actually views the House of Judah as the rich man. which consisted of the tribes of Judah, Levi and surprisingly, Benjamin [Saul/Paul's tribe].
It is one of the very few places where a person is actually shown suffering in the flame of "Hades".
Thoughts?
 
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Zao is life

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"They have Moses and the prophets" immediately brings to mind what Jesus said elsewhere:

Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

And in the parable, it ends with these words:

"And he said, I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. And he said, No, father Abraham, but if one should go to them from the dead, they would repent.

And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead."

Jesus said,

Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Jesus said to those who did not believe Him,

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life. And they are the ones witnessing of Me, and you will not come to Me that you might have life."

So I've always believed that the parable was about those who disbelieve Jesus' words and the gospel.
 
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Adamina

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literaryjoe

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The New Covenant does, indeed, re-affirm God's Word, and does not change or invalidate it. It does not take a body of instruction about which it is said, "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever." (Psalm 119:160 ESV) and cause it to no longer serve for the instruction of those who believe, or no longer comprise the truth, or no longer endure. In the very passage you just quoted (Gal 3) Paul is clear to affirm: "the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void" (3:17). By "promise" Paul refers to the Abrahamic covenant, and by Law he refers to the Mosaic law, which his opponents at the time believed justified and included one in the promises of salvation. This is what Paul is arguing: the law cannot/does not/is not intended to justify. I am confident that we are in agreement on that point, at least.

But the New Covenant also does not change the contents of the covenant. The radical change, the manner in which the New Covenant was unlike the Old Covenant, is that it was now God who was/is responsible to write His law (the same law, not a different or truncated one) on the hearts of His people. While previously the people were responsible to keep their promise, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient" (Ex 24:7), and to "Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your (plural) heart, and be no longer stubborn" (Deu 10:16), now God is responsible, for he promises, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jer 31:33). You may note that it is the same promise God has been making all along, since Gen 17:7, Ex 6:7, Lev 26:12, etc: "And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be my people." It may also be helpful to notice that everything God says and does is to restore the state of Eden: "I will walk among you." Everything new is old again, to turn a common phrase on its head.

This promise never varies, it is in fact, the meta-goal of God's redemptive acts in history. "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God." (Revelation 21:3 ESV)

Likewise, God's character never changes, and similarly our perpetual command never changes: "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children." (Ephesians 5:1 NIV) How shall we know what God's character is? The Law, the Gospels, and the Spirit: a description, an example, and the "finger of God," which is writing His laws on our heart, rather than on stone tablets. When a body of instruction moves from stone tablets (description) to living tablets (our hearts) it does not go away and is not replaced, but is now quickened, or enlivened.


It should be patently obvious that a summation does not replace or alter: it summarizes. Just as the 10 Words summarize the "613" commandments of the Mosaic Law, and just as Micah summarizes the entire law with "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?", so does Jesus summarize all God's law with the "2 Great Commandments" and Paul summarizes them with, "For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:9-10 ESV)

You will notice, I hope, that the "fulfilling" does not replace or change the commandments, but keeps them. To summarize makes something easier to understand, to evaluate, to comprehend, to live in accord with. It never replaces or changes something.

So when we read in Deuteronomy: "When you build a new house, you shall make a parapet for your roof, that you may not bring the guilt of blood upon your house, if anyone should fall from it." (22:8), we are to consider ourselves instructed by that. Not threatened by losing our salvation if we do not do so, but taught what God would do in the scenario that people use their roofs in the same manner as we use our porch, deck, or balcony.

Furthermore, we are instructed on good government: there is no penalty for not building a parapet around your roof, unless someone falls from it, and then one is held guilty for failing to have properly (as God would have) loved their neighbor.

But in saying that only Christ can perfectly fulfill God's law, we would agree, but it is also helpful to note that God's expectation is that the "righteous requirements" of His law will be walked out or fulfilled "in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)

And, because it is biblical, I would also agree that the fruit of God's Spirit, which is present only in those who abide in Christ, is what produces the "good deeds" which we were created and subsequently saved in order to walk in. (Eph 2:10)

So where do we disagree? You have been presenting a case for a complicated reading of Scripture which attempts to describe how one can read the Bible so as to believe that certain of God's laws have been done away with, and we are only now instructed (essentially) by that which is repeated in the New Testament. I am hoping you will come to see that one doesn't have to work so hard to understand the Bible. The Scriptures are clear: be imitators of God, just like beloved children yearn to imitate their fathers.

Everything in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, tells us something about God's character, and we--not for our salvation, but in gratitude for it, and by virtue of its enabling--now seek to do what Jesus would do in any given situation, and every situation in Scripture is pertinent to our attempt to imitate Him.

The question of how does x or y apply in my time and place is admittedly complex, but that is what we have an entire Body for, and that is why we have a Head and His Spirit within us.

So my advice to you would be (if you will forgive the presumption): IF you see anyone attempting to earn their salvation by doing right, share with them the good news that salvation is by grace through faith in accepting the perfect life of Christ applied to their benefit. BUT, if you see anyone attempting to more perfectly imitate their Savior by living as He did (observing the calendar He observed, eating only those foods He ate, etc.) out of their love for Him, bless them in their journey, and look to collaborate with them, as there are most certainly areas where you are more perfectly walking in the Spirit and areas where they are more perfectly walking in the Spirit, and we are both called to "exhort one another daily, and all the more as we see the Day approaching."
 
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Josheb

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Did those laws exist prior to the writing down of the Mosaic code? Was not the Law of Moses simply the codification of commands, precepts, and laws that already existed? Are these laws not simply an expression of the moral design and structures of creation?
 
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