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The Law is to be passed on to us...

k4c

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Even the Gentiles had a moral imperative written in them, as Romans 2 points out:

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.



But even as mankind (as the Gentiles were known before the first covenant estranged them) had a code in their conscience from imagery in the likeness of their Creator, this same passage plainly tells us that the Gentiles never received the ten commandments. They didn't have a written code to abide by. The result of their position outside the covenant God made with Israel was that they would perish without hope as long as the first covenant held tenure. See Ephesians 2:11-16 and Galatians 3:10-14, as both passages explain this relationship of the Gentiles apart from God.
  • Moses testified in Deuteronomy 4:8 via a rhetorical question that no other group of people on earth had the ten commandments.
  • Moses testified in Deuteronomy 5:2-3 that the covenant Israel received didn't exist prior to his own generation - and then he proceeds to list the ten commandments as that covenant.
You have repeatedly contradicted Moses, as well as the definition for the first covenant in the law, and the definition of the new covenant defined in Hebrews.

You also have disregarded the specific points that I raised to your attention in an earlier post:

You have not responded to what law Romans 3:31 claims the author established. You will not find anything about the sabbath in the Genesis account, whereby the author demonstrates Abraham was imputed righteousness without performance to any commandment, even that of circumcision.

The "us" addressed by that law have all died, and there are none claiming to be under that covenant while claiming to be a Christian in the new covenant. Your notion is patently false.

The meaning of the verb denoting a command to perform something that can't be documented in the past (at least prior to the manna experience a month earlier) does not in any way imply anything from the Genesis record.



The seventh day was God's rest, and Hebrews 4:4 quotes directly from Genesis 2:2, and the entire chapter shows the sabbatismos of God's "My rest" remained as a promise of "another day" those keeping the sabbath for 1500 years didn't attain. The sabbath itself didn't exist until nearly a million days after the seventh day.
  • The Genesis account doesn't record a repetitive day observed by any human.
  • Exodus 20:11 clearly delineates the seventh day apart from the sabbath.
  • Hebrews 4 calls the seventh day of creation God's "My rest" that remained to be attained by a people who were already observing the sabbath.
  • Moses testifies that the ten commandments were unknown to the generation previous to his own in Deuteronomy 5:2-3, and lists the sabbath as a memorial of deliverance from Egyptian bondage in Deuteronomy 5:15.
  • Nehemiah 9:13-14 attributes the origin of the sabbath with Moses.
Find where the book of the law describes cursing the ground as the penalty for murder. Your notion is laughable at best.

The Gentiles have the moral aspect of the law within because they too were made in the image of God. But in that condition God calls them aliens to the commonwelth of Israel and strangers to the covenant of promise. Why would God say that? Because there is a need for them to be grafted in. It's in the grafting in that they learn how to worship the one true God. It is in this grafting that they learn of the first four commandments because they reveal the true desire of God for His people, which is not to be a moral people only but a godly people as well. You can be moral and worship other Gods, use the Lord's name in vain, use statues in worship, forget the Sabbath but you can't be godly without the first four commandments.

As far as Hebrews goes, God uses the seventh day Sabbath to help picture the kingdom of God. The other day that He is referring is medtaphor for the kingdom but it does not do away with the holiness and blessedness of the seventh day now.

-- Simple English
Hebrews 4:9 So, there is a keeping of sabbath still open for God's people.

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
Hebrews 4:9 There must still be, therefore, a seventh-day rest reserved for God's people,

---Bible in Basic English
Hebrews 4:9 So that there is still a Sabbath-keeping for the people of God.

---Douay-Rheims Bible
Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.
 
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freeindeed2

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Absolutely!
K4c has inferred a meaning divorced from the context.

Acts 7
35 “This Moses whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’ is the one God sent to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the Angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after he had shown wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red Sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 “This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’
38 “This is he who was in the congregation in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us, 39 whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected. And in their hearts they turned back to Egypt, 40 saying to Aaron, ‘Make us gods to go before us; as for this Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.


Stephen's testimony agrees with Jeremiah's, when he points out that the former covenant dictated at Sinai (that's the ten commandments) was violated. Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8 go on to explain that because the former covenant was violated, God elected to establish a new covenant that was not according to Sinai.

Sound bite theology is the modus operandi of those intent on dishonesty. Shame on you, k4c.
Hi Victor. :) Thank you for addressing the 'sound bite' theology issue used so commonly here. I have had the same experience in another thread :doh: by unpacking a whole passage only to be met with avoidance and then individual verses quoted from all over the Bible making the Bible say what it does not actually say.

Anyway, I appreciate your sound use of scripture. It's refreshing to see!

In Christ alone...
 
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StormyOne

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Hi Victor. :) Thank you for addressing the 'sound bite' theology issue used so commonly used here. I have had the same experience in another thread :doh: by unpacking a whole passage only to be met with avoidance and then individual verses quoted from all over the Bible making the Bible say what it does not actually say.

Anyway, I appreciate your sound use of scripture. It's refreshing to see!

In Christ alone...
Free, that type of approach is usually used by people who believe that those sound bits are "the truth" that others need to hear.... consequently its does more for the user than the "target audience."
 
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VictorC

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The Gentiles have the moral aspect of the law within because they too were made in the image of God. But in that condition God calls them aliens to the commonwelth of Israel and strangers to the covenant of promise. Why would God say that? Because there is a need for them to be grafted in. It's in the grafting in that they learn how to worship the one true God. It is in this grafting that they learn of the first four commandments because they reveal the true desire of God for His people, which is not to be a moral people only but a godly people as well. You can be moral and worship other Gods, use the Lord's name in vain, use statues in worship, forget the Sabbath but you can't be godly without the first four commandments.
Yet you fail to acknowledge that the Gentiles could not be grafted into the Root that is holy (not another branch) until the time the covenant from Sinai had expired, and God established the new covenant when He took away the first one. That was pointed out, and I even suggested you turn to Ephesians 2:11-16 and Galatians 3:10-14 to find that very message.
As far as Hebrews goes, God uses the seventh day Sabbath to help picture the kingdom of God. The other day that He is referring is medtaphor for the kingdom but it does not do away with the holiness and blessedness of the seventh day now.
But you fail to acknowledge that the sabbath didn't exist until nearly the millionth day. The seventh day (not the repeating day of a week) was God's "My rest" that remained as a promise to be attained by a people that had already been under the sabbath for 1500 years. The sabbath didn't attain God's rest for the simple reason it wasn't God's rest - even Jesus pointed out that the sabbath was "made for man" in Mark 2:27, and God did not create anything on the seventh day.

Because you can't turn to a competent translation of the Bible, and you choose to ignore the context Hebrews 4:9 appears in, you miss the obvious that this chapter mentions nothing about a weekly sabbath.

Hebrews 3-4 addresses God's permanent rest that "we who have believed do enter that rest". His rest is eternal, while the temporal rest you chose to abide by expired.
 
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VictorC

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Hi Victor. :) Thank you for addressing the 'sound bite' theology issue used so commonly here. I have had the same experience in another thread :doh: by unpacking a whole passage only to be met with avoidance and then individual verses quoted from all over the Bible making the Bible say what it does not actually say.

Anyway, I appreciate your sound use of scripture. It's refreshing to see!

In Christ alone...
I've been hanging out on the theology forum, until the noise there died down. It's good to see your presence here!!!
Dr Patti is coming to our neighborhood soon - when I get details I will email you. We're both eager to meet you!
 
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freeindeed2

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I've been hanging out on the theology forum, until the noise there died down. It's good to see your presence here!!!
Dr Patti is coming to our neighborhood soon - when I get details I will email you. We're both eager to meet you!
I am looking forward to it. In the mean time, keep up the sound use of scripture.

In Christ alone...
 
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freeindeed2

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Free, that type of approach is usually used by people who believe that those sound bits are "the truth" that others need to hear.... consequently its does more for the user than the "target audience."
Especially when the 'target audience' is secured firmly in the One who called himself the way, the TRUTH, and the life. :)

In Christ alone...
 
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VictorC

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In the mean time, keep up the sound use of scripture.
No more sound bites taken out of context shall be tolerated. Isaiah 28:13 portrays the error of sound-bite theology and the result thereof:
But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.
 
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Avonia

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No more sound bites taken out of context shall be tolerated. Isaiah 28:13 portrays the error of sound-bite theology and the result thereof:
But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.
I'm not sure how we moved from having a conversation to proving K4C wrong. Not sure this is our greatest moment.
 
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k4c

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No more sound bites taken out of context shall be tolerated. Isaiah 28:13 portrays the error of sound-bite theology and the result thereof:
But the word of the LORD was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.

Sorry, but this is not saying you're trying to make it say.
 
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VictorC

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I'm not sure how we moved from having a conversation to proving K4C wrong. Not sure this is our greatest moment.
I didn't think that was the object this thread. The OP was made from a complete misapplication of Stephen's testimony in Acts 7, Adventtruth noted it, I commended him for his observation, and k4c has been trying his best to save face since that event. My concern is that the Biblical text's meaning as recorded by its author should stand for what the author intended.
 
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VictorC

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I understand. And you are capable of being the architect of conversations of a different nature.

Given your ability.
Conversations mutate as they progress; I don't really try to steer them in a particular direction. Surely you've been here long enough that you've seen discussions morph, especially when the OP is abandoned by the person who originated it.
 
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VictorC

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Amen...you just missed it.
Somehow you concluded that this is a weird game of "I'm right, you're not" in your mind.
It isn't.
You have had every opportunity to elucidate on the passage under discussion, and the evidence showing your reluctance to make the smallest effort to do so is indicative that you're blowing hot air.
 
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