The Law Fulfilled in Christ

[Sophia7]

We generally divide the law into ceremonial and moral. It should also be noted that there are some other kinds of laws which really don’t fit neatly in that category either.

A. National laws for the nation of Israel. These would be those laws that related to the governance of Israel as a theocracy. They are applications of moral law in a particular setting. Examples include the establishment of cities of refuge, etc.

B. Covenant stipulations. Some laws were not enduring moral principles, but they did not directly point toward the Christ event either. These were stipulations for the covenant itself, defining the relationship of God to His people. For instance, the covenant curses and blessings are not moral laws as such. They are rewards or punishments within the covenant agreement when the other stipulations were broken.

It is to this latter group, the covenant stipulations, that the Sabbath may fit most closely.

I'm starting this as a new topic so as not to sidetrack the Suzerainty Covenants thread, but I wanted to address a couple of points.

The Torah is one law. It could be that different aspects of it were given for different reasons, but still it's presented as a whole, and Jesus fulfilled all of it:

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
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GAL 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

GAL 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

GAL 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
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The whole law was given to lead us to Christ. Also, what do you make of Colossians 2, which does seem to indicate that the Sabbath, along with other holy days, which Adventists usually see as ceremonial, pointed directly toward Christ?

Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (NASB)
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[JonMiller]

So than you are saying that there are currently two laws of God. One law that is in effect before we are Christian. And one law that is written on our hearts after we accept Christ into our lives?

JM

 

[Adventtruth]

So than you are saying that there are currently two laws of God. One law that is in effect before we are Christian. And one law that is written on our hearts after we accept Christ into our lives?

JM

This thing is not hard if we study the bible a book at a time. The law on stone is to lead to Christ, not to give life. How does it lead to Christ? Because law keeping only condemns you, being sinful. God forgives you of all your sin through Christ. But you must die to law through the body of Chirst. Law and sin are partners to give you death.

AT

 

[JonMiller]

You are being incomplete though, because it says that the law of God is written on the hearts of those who accept Christ.

JM

 

[digdeep]

I'm starting this as a new topic so as not to sidetrack the Suzerainty Covenants thread, but I wanted to address a couple of points.


The Torah is one law. It could be that different aspects of it were given for different reasons, but still it's presented as a whole, and Jesus fulfilled all of it:

MT 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

______________________________________________________​

GAL 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.​

GAL 3:21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.​

GAL 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.​

The whole law was given to lead us to Christ. Also, what do you make of Colossians 2, which does seem to indicate that the Sabbath, along with other holy days, which Adventists usually see as ceremonial, pointed directly toward Christ?

Colossians 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (NASB)​

Hello Sophia,
Very good topic.
I can see how you come to that conclusion.

The way I believe the bible presents it is that God gave the 10 commandments to express His Law in words. His Law is eternal and needed to be explained to man so that man can understand his duty to God and also understand who God is. Now Moses gave the 10 commandments in DETAIL through Exodus 21 and on. So you can say the Law of Moses and the Law of God is interchangeblily. [notice Luke 2:22-24 as an example of this]

Jesus came to magnify the law. Jesus reveals what the law of God is really all about. LOVE.

Therefore the new convenant promise of the law in my heart and mind is Jesus in my heart and mind through the person of the Holy Spirit. [2cor 3 and Heb 8]

The point that I believe that most of christiandom is missing is that Jesus DOES NOT contradict The 10 commandments. His life harmonizes with the 10 commandments. And as He lives in us our lives will harmanize with the 10 commandments, EVENTHOUGH we are no longer following after a list of 10 commandments. [sort of a paradox.] Romans 8:3,4

This is not to say that we suceed in this. No one has perfectly obeyed, even with the Spirit living in us, We fall WAAAAAY SHORT. But thanks be to God we are not under the law but under Grace. Romans 6:14; Romans 8:1

DD

 

[Jimlarmore]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Some of us who are looking for a way to put aside/rationalize away a truth we once embraced wholeheartedly are now using the same arguements that our opponents used.

What clinched the ten commandments being still in effect for me are texts like this:

Rev 21:8

8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If the ten commandments were fulfilled at the cross some of them wouldn't have been mentioned in the apocalypse which is a new covenant book.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Some of us who are looking for a way to put aside/rationalize away a truth we once embraced wholeheartedly are now using the same arguements that our opponents used.

Ad hominem arguments are beneath you, Jim. I wasn't looking for a way to set aside truth. If I had been, I would have stopped studying and ignored all of the problems that I was discovering with Adventist doctrine so that my husband and I could stay in our comfortable life and save our ministry and not risk the condemnation of our friends and families, most of whom (if they're still Adventists) probably think we're going down a slippery slope to hell.

However, I couldn't overlook the biblical evidence that contradicted what I, having been raised Adventist, was predisposed to believe about so many things. Those who leave Adventism for doctrinal reasons do not do so because they don't want to accept "the truth," as you say. We leave because of conviction from the Holy Spirit that what we once believed is not actually truth and because we want to follow Christ wherever He leads us.

What clinched the ten commandments being still in effect for me are texts like this:

Rev 21:8

8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If the ten commandments were fulfilled at the cross some of them wouldn't have been mentioned in the apocalypse which is a new covenant book.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I highlighted the key part of your statement, Jim. That text in Revelation is not given on the basis of things that are listed in the Ten Commandments, especially since some of them are not. Also, some of the commands given by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount were in the OT but not in the Ten Commandments. The Adventist distinction between the Ten Commandments as the eternally binding, universally applicable moral law and almost everything else except for the food laws as ceremonial is a false dichotomy.

 

[tall73]

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If the ten commandments were fulfilled at the cross some of them wouldn't have been mentioned in the apocalypse which is a new covenant book.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

If the mosaic law were nailed to the cross then that text wouldn't mention sorcerers--which were not in the 10, but in the mosaic law.....

But then that doesn't work either.

 

[JonMiller]

The 10 commandments aren't the penultimate version of the Moral law.

JM

 

[RND]

If the mosaic law were nailed to the cross then that text wouldn't mention sorcerers--which were not in the 10, but in the mosaic law.....

But then that doesn't work either.

As I see it sorcery violates the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, the 9th and the 10th Commandments of God found in Exodus 20.

Those involved in sorcery have and worship other gods, generally bow down to graven images, take the Lord's name in vain in preaching other gods, bear false witness as to the true nature character and true nature of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and lastly covet that which belongs to God Himself, namely the souls of other men.

Other than that sorcery must be a.o.k!

 

[Adventtruth]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Some of us who are looking for a way to put aside/rationalize away a truth we once embraced wholeheartedly are now using the same arguements that our opponents used.

What clinched the ten commandments being still in effect for me are texts like this:

Rev 21:8

8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If the ten commandments were fulfilled at the cross some of them wouldn't have been mentioned in the apocalypse which is a new covenant book.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim what you wrote here plainly proves you don't understand the covenants. Everything listed in that verse is of the Old Covenant contract. What this passage does prove is that those who are under the Old Covenant contract are found guilty of breaking that contract and are banished to have their part in the lake of fire. Those who are of the New Covenant are truley Justified by faith alone in Christ and its impossible for the justified to be condemned because of those things, being in Christ.

Now all and every one who has not been justified by faith alone, fall under the old covenant law. Yes that law is still in effect, the unsaved are condemned by it. Its that which points and leads to Christ of the New Covenant for pardon. Its called the Gospel Of God, or simply the good news.

So yes...the kind and sweet little old lady down the street, who has never done anything wrong, but who has not recieved what Christ has to offer, falls under the Old Covenant law of works, that is until she recieves what Christ has to offer.


AT

 

[Adventtruth]

You are being incomplete though, because it says that the law of God is written on the hearts of those who accept Christ.

JM

And do you suppose the law of God is that which was on stone? Or something greater?

AT

 

[JonMiller]

I think that the law of Moses was an implementation of the Moral law of God (combined with the ceremonial law). Of course, it would be simplified for that particularly culture/etc. The key point is that the law of Moses would not include instructions to go against the Moral law; and would include the Moral law for that culture. So that you can have another understnading of the Moral law that wasn't based on our (faulty) consciences.

JM

 

[RND]

Those who are of the New Covenant are truley Justified by faith alone in Christ and its impossible for the justified to be condemned because of those things, being in Christ.

True. But it is clear we are 'sanctified' by obedience.

Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Now all and every one who has not been justified by faith alone, fall under the old covenant law.

Does that mean that those that have accepted Jesus Christ are free to violate the "old covenant law?" Yes or no would be fine.

Yes that law is still in effect, the unsaved are condemned by it. Its that which points and leads to Christ of the New Covenant for pardon. Its called the Gospel Of God, or simply the good news.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

So yes...the kind and sweet little old lady down the street, who has never done anything wrong,

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

but who has not recieved what Christ has to offer, falls under the Old Covenant law of works, that is until she recieves what Christ has to offer.

What happens after she accepts Christ? Would this sweet little old lady be free to continue in sin?

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

 

[tall73]

As I see it sorcery violates the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, the 9th and the 10th Commandments of God found in Exodus 20.

Those involved in sorcery have and worship other gods, generally bow down to graven images, take the Lord's name in vain in preaching other gods, bear false witness as to the true nature character and true nature of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and lastly covet that which belongs to God Himself, namely the souls of other men.

Other than that sorcery must be a.o.k!

Which commandment does not eating blood come under?


Why do Adventists keep ceremonial food laws of clean and unclean yet disregard rules regarding menstruation and emissions? If one is under the 10 why are not both?

Adventists are not consistent with their treatment of moral and ceremonial.

The law against eating blood was an enduring law that WAS shown as given to Noah, was part of the Sinai covenant and part of the instructions to the Gentiles. There are commands besides the 10.

 

[JonMiller]

Well, adventists call some things sins which aren't called sins anywhere in the Bible. Like alcohol use.

JM
(strong drink is called a mocker, and drunkeness is definitely a sin, but alcohol period...)

 

[RND]

Which commandment does not eating blood come under?

Specifically? None. I suppose we could make a case for the 7th however. Also, the 10 Commandments doesn't include the health laws. Those are Mosaic laws. But you knew that.

I thought we were talking about Revelation 21:8. I don't see where 'blood eaters' are mentioned there, do you?

Why do Adventists keep ceremonial food laws of clean and unclean yet disregard rules regarding menstruation and emissions?

Who says they do? Isn't this a broad generalization?

If one is under the 10 why are not both?

Because one deals mainly with how we are to conduct ourselves towards God and other men, while one deals with how we our to conduct ourselves regarding our personal best interests.

Adventists are not consistent with their treatment of moral and ceremonial.

Again, that's a rather broad generalization. Let me state for the record that the 'health laws' in general do not involve 'salvation' issues.

If someone serves the Lord as best they can with whatever knowledge has been imparted on them and yet eats pork everyday, I seriously doubt that the Lord won't find a place for them in His Kingdom.

Can I assume then that you see sorcery as violating the 10 Commandments? Yes or no would be fine.

 

[Adventtruth]

True. But it is clear we are 'sanctified' by obedience.

Do you see and understand sanctification in the following verse? Did you obey a command to be sealed with the Holy Spirit other than believe?

(Eph 1:13) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Proverbs 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Who was the author, what era what he writting, who would have been the audience, how would they have understood it, and what covenant agreement was it? It makes a difference.

Does that mean that those that have accepted Jesus Christ are free to violate the "old covenant law?" Yes or no would be fine.

Can a dead dog bark? Romans 7:4

Sorry...somethings are not yes and no answers.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

You are doing the Adventist proof texting thing. Lets try the context of John 14 into John 15 and then you come to this passage.

(Joh 15:12) "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
(Joh 15:13) Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
(Joh 15:14) You are my friends if you do what I command you.

In the 1 John passage its clear that he is not teaching observance to a law of stone but being a loving believer. Read it.

(1Jn 2:10) Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling.

Read the whole chapter in context to get a flavor of the message John is teaching.

In the Romans 13:10 passage you have to ask yourself. How does one fulfill the law? When Christ fulfilled the whole law, did He physically perform all of the Mosaic Law to fulfill it? Ofcourse not, so fulfill must carrry a different meaning.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



What happens after she accepts Christ? Would this sweet little old lady be free to continue in sin?

After she recieves what Christ has to offer, then she would be justified just like you and I. If she has a new nature dwelling in her, then she will have a desire to do righteousness. The Spirit will teach all of Gods righteous to live a righteous life to His glory and not their own glory.

ames 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

If you would read this chapter slowly you would discover that the royal law and the ten commandment law are two different things.

AT

 

[tall73]

Specifically? None. I suppose we could make a case for the 7th however. Also, the 10 Commandments doesn't include the health laws. Those are Mosaic laws. But you knew that.

I thought we were talking about Revelation 21:8. I don't see where 'blood eaters' are mentioned there, do you?

It is re-iterated in the NT.

That is the point.

Who says they do? Isn't this a broad generalization?

Who says they keep ceremonial food laws?

Or who says they don't stay outside the camp for a time during and following menstruation?

On the first, baptismal vow number 10:

10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; and will you honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods; from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages; the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption; and from the misuse of or trafficking in narcotics or other drugs?

On the second, hey, maybe they do go outside the camp. Haven't heard any sermons on it though.

Because one deals mainly with how we are to conduct ourselves towards God and other men, while one deals with how we our to conduct ourselves regarding our personal best interests.

You may have missed it but some class unclean foods as coming under thou shalt not kill--yourself.

But either way, the fact that you admit that a mosaic command came in that was not in the ten raises questions about our distinction between moral and ceremonial.

Again, that's a rather broad generalization. Let me state for the record that the 'health laws' in general do not involve 'salvation' issues.

They don't? Don't meat products animalize us according to EGW?

If someone serves the Lord as best they can with whatever knowledge has been imparted on them and yet eats pork everyday, I seriously doubt that the Lord won't find a place for them in His Kingdom.

I agree. But I am not sure all would based on statements made.

Can I assume then that you see sorcery as violating the 10 Commandments? Yes or no would be fine.

No.

I see it violating a direct command.

 

[tall73]

In any case I don't see the unity of the law as the main question so this is a secondary point to me.

My larger point is that those in the new covenant are to live out the fruit of the Spirit.

The goal is not to discard right behavior. The goal is for it to come from the Spirit ,not focus on the law.

The real question to me is whether the Sabbath is part of the enduring law on the heart. And I am covering that in the other thread.