The last gasp of Imperialism in Europe?

Douggg

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The testimony of 2 Thes. 2 is that the Son of Perdition is destroyed at the Parousia of Christ. The testimony of 1 Thes. 4 is that the Parousia is when Christ comes for his Church. Deny these things if you will.
Jesus comes for the rapture/resurrection event in 1Thessalonians4. The translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Jesus's Second Coming is later, after the great tribulation. Matthew 24:30b.

The rapture window is shown on my chart. And Jesus's second coming is also noted.




ratpure window 8.jpg
 
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myst33

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The Parousia of Christ is when He snatches up His Church (1 Thes. 4:14-17), which did not occur in 70 AD.
We cannot say that inspired writers were wrong. Therefore, it happened in some way, we just do not know how.

Interestingly, we have no real tombs of first century Christians or reliable records of them living after 70 AD. Not even those famous ones mentioned in the Bible. They all kind of disappeared. However, its also possible the "snatching" had some more spiritual meaning.
 
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WilliamLhk

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Interestingly, we have no real tombs of first century Christians or reliable records of them living after 70 AD.
Depends on who is defining "reliable records."

We have absolutely no records of anyone living after 70 AD that say any part of the Church disappeared at that time. And there were quite a few disciples of the Apostles living and writing in that century.
 
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WilliamLhk

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Jesus comes for the rapture/resurrection event in 1Thessalonians4. The translation of the living and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Jesus's Second Coming is later, after the great tribulation. Matthew 24:30b.
The 1Thessalonians 4 prophecy is of "the Parousia of the Lord." 4:15

The 2 Thessalonians 2 prophecy is of "the Parousia of our Lord." 2:1, 8

The Matthew 24 prophecy is of "the Parousia of the Son of Man" (24:27), called "your Parousia" (24:3) by His disciples.

There is only one Parousia. Despite what pre-tribbers teach, and how many charts they draw up.
 
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myst33

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Depends on who is defining "reliable records."

We have absolutely no records of anyone living after 70 AD that say any part of the Church disappeared at that time. And there were quite a few disciples of the Apostles living and writing in that century.
Because the 66-70AD was the great tribulation and hundreds of thousands of people died from various reasons, the disappearance could go unnoticed or those who were left were ashamed and could have no motivation to write anything about it. There is also a noticeable gap in Christian writings after 70 AD.

However, there are many possibilities what those mysterious words of Paul could mean, so I have no horse in that race. On the other hand, I think its quite clear from Scriptures that it had to happen in the first century, not later.
 
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claninja

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where Antichrist arises out of a 4th Empire,

Antichrist already arose during the 4th empire (Roman empire) in the first century. It’s how John knew it was the last hour.

1 John 4:3 This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 John 2:18 18Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour
 
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WilliamLhk

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Because the 66-70AD was the great tribulation and hundreds of thousands of people died from various reasons, the disappearance could go unnoticed or those who were left were ashamed and could have no motivation to write anything about it. There is also a noticeable gap in Christian writings after 70 AD
But Paul was writing to the Gentiles about their deliverance at the Parousia, not about the Jewish believers alone.The Jewish War did not effect the Thessalonians. So your point is irrelevant.
The Parousia will be for the whole Church. So it is yet to come.
 
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myst33

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But Paul was writing to the Gentiles about their deliverance at the Parousia, not about the Jewish believers alone.The Jewish War did not effect the Thessalonians. So your point is irrelevant.
The Parousia will be for the whole Church. So it is yet to come.
The Parousia had to occur in their lifetime, Paul says that clearly (and not just Paul, also the other authors of the New Testament).

How exactly it affected the first Christians in Thessaloniki and what happened to them, I have no idea. Their part of tribulation could be more the Nero/beast persecution and the tribulation for unbelieving Jews and Jewish Christians could be more about the Jewish War.

2,000 years after the event its just about guesses.
 
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WilliamLhk

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.2,000 years after the event its just about guesses.
Those of us who know differently are seeing End Time prophecies having been fulfilled and nearing fulfillment. Those like you are oblivious to the signs of the times, therefore likely will not be ready for the Parousia. Sad to say.
 
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myst33

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Those of us who know differently are seeing End Time prophecies having been fulfilled and nearing fulfillment. Those like you are oblivious to the signs of the times, therefore likely will not be ready for the Parousia. Sad to say.
This emotional nonsense and "us who see vs you blind ones" are not too relevant.

The text of the New Testament is clear. The Parousia had to happen in their lifetime. Its said in so many places and in so many ways that to believe otherwise is simply not possible. If you ignore so many of their words, how can you talk about any kind of fulfillment. Its just cherry-picking.
 
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Jipsah

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Those of us who know differently are seeing End Time prophecies having been fulfilled and nearing fulfillment.
Thus spake every End Times aficionado in my fairly long lifetime.
Those like you are oblivious to the signs of the times, therefore likely will not be ready for the Parousia. Sad to say.
Yeah, gotta embrace every bit of doctrinal faddism there is else we Just Won't Make It. Fortunately I don't think that's the case at all.
 
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WilliamLhk

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This emotional nonsense and "us who see vs you blind ones" are not too relevant.

2,000 years after the event its just about guesses.
Snarky is as snarky does.

Despite all your claims about the great tribulation being fulfilled, the prophecy of Daniel 11:40 - 12:3, which begins "at the time of the end," and ends with the great tribulation (12:1) and the resurrection of the dead from their graves (12:2-3), was by no means fulfilled in 66 - 70 AD.

Unless you can come up with some explanation I've never heard, which is very unlikely. But you are welcome to give it a shot.
The Parousia had to occur in their lifetime, Paul says that clearly (and not just Paul, also the other authors of the New Testament).
The disciples were able to express their opinions about the time of the Parousia, but not a single one of them said that the Holy Spirit revealed such things to them. Because they had no such revelation, nor could have: Christ's own words to them denied them such knowledge:

Acts 1:7 And He (Jesus) said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority."

The words of Christ are the bottom line on the subject!
 
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Douggg

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The 1Thessalonians 4 prophecy is of "the Parousia of the Lord." 4:15

The 2 Thessalonians 2 prophecy is of "the Parousia of our Lord." 2:1, 8

The Matthew 24 prophecy is of "the Parousia of the Son of Man" (24:27), called "your Parousia" (24:3) by His disciples.

There is only one Parousia. Despite what pre-tribbers teach, and how many charts they draw up.
You don't understand the transliterated noun "parousia" regarding content in a passage.

---------------------------------------------------------

"coming of the Lord"in 1Thessalonians4:15 will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Separate from Jesus's Second Coming.

the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:8 will be destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming.

Jesus's Second Coming in Matthew 24:27 will be seen worldwide.

Matthew 24:3 the disciples asked about His Second Coming.
-------------------------------------------------------

The transliterated noun parousia was not invented to mean Jesus's Second Coming. It was already in the Greek vocabulary.

The term is used 24 times in the new testament. 6 of those times it refers to human individual(s), arriving or presence. 1Corinthians16:17, for example.

17 I am glad of the coming (parousia) of Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus: for that which was lacking on your part they have supplied.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My "anytime rapture" chart regarding the rapture timing window is slightly different from the "pre-trib rapture" timing window. Here are the two views timing window, so you can compare.


ratpure window 8.jpg





Pretrib rapture view.jpg
 
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myst33

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The disciples were able to express their opinions about the time of the Parousia, but not a single one of them said that the Holy Spirit revealed such things to them. Because they had no such revelation

If you believe the apostles were not inspired regarding Parousia, why do you even want to talk about it, then. There is nothing certain, in such a case. Why do you think that Daniel was inspired regarding eschatology, but not Paul, Peter, John or James is over my head, though.

The words of Christ are the bottom line on the subject!

Great!

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31

"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid"
Lk 3:7-9
 
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WilliamLhk

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You don't understand the transliterated noun "parousia" regarding content in a passage.

"coming of the Lord"in 1Thessalonians4:15 will be for the rapture/resurrection event. Separate from Jesus's Second Coming.

the revealed man of sin in 2Thessalonians2:8 will be destroyed at Jesus' Second Coming.

Jesus's Second Coming in Matthew 24:27 will be seen worldwide.

Matthew 24:3 the disciples asked about His Second Coming.
There can be only one "THE/THY Parousia"! You have to "twist/pervert" (2 Peter 3:16) the Word to say that there will be two of them.

The "Second Coming" is a made-up term never used in the NT. When Jesus returns at the rapture, His Parousia/Presence will thenceforth be involved with this lower realm. For example, He will personally and "alone" destroy the invading Edomites. Isaiah 63:3 (1-6); 34:5ff. That earthly event, in which His garments will be stained with blood (63:3), will take place prior to His descent with the armies of heaven (Rev. 19), when He descends with already blood-stained garments. 19:3

This is the real testimony of the Word, not two Parousias.
 
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Douggg

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There can be only one "THE/THY Parousia"! You have to "twist/pervert" (2 Peter 3:16) the Word to say that there will be two of them.

The "Second Coming" is a made-up term never used in the NT.
Obviously, the disciples in Matthew 24:3 were not asking about Jesus's first coming as they were speaking to him face to face.

The "Second Coming" is a commonly used term to refer to Jesus's Return.

If I were you, I would stay away from using Greek transliterated words like parousia that you don't know understand their usage in the new testament.

There will be one Second Coming as understood to be Jesus's Return. Before then will Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection event for the living in Christ and them who have died in Christ.
 
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WilliamLhk

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Great!

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27
Fulfilled immediately afterwards in His transfiguration on the mountain with Moses and Elijah, seen by Peter, James and John.
"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23
There is no evidence that they ever proselytized any of the cities of Judah/Southern Israel in their day.
"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. This generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31
The "this [literally, the same] generation" refers to the generation of the fig tree putting forth leaves, which is End Times.
"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64
Which everyone, living and dead, will see at the Parousia and following resurrection of the dead: "all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth..." John 5:28-29
"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid"
Lk 3:7-9
The Baptist was speaking to the hardhearted Jews. No mention here about anything otherwise.

None of the above quotes prove that the biblical End Times ended in or by
70 AD. One must read such a presumption into them by a pre-determined bias.

However, Daniel 11:40ff., and many many passages in Revelation, as well as Jesus' own words about such things as all the tribes of the earth seeing Him coming on the clouds of heaven, and the sign of Son of Man appearing in heaven, and the time of trouble such as never was nor shall be again -- none of these prophecies can be credibly claimed to have been fulfilled before our day.
 
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myst33

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Fulfilled immediately afterwards in His transfiguration on the mountain with Moses and Elijah, seen by Peter, James and John.

There is no evidence that they ever proselytized any of the cities of Judah/Southern Israel in their day.

The "this [literally, the same] generation" refers to the generation of the fig tree putting forth leaves, which is End Times.

Which everyone, living and dead, will see at the Parousia and following resurrection of the dead: "all in the graves will hear His voice and come forth..." John 5:28-29

The Baptist was speaking to the hardhearted Jews. No mention here about anything otherwise.

None of the above quotes prove that the biblical End Times ended in or by
70 AD. One must read such a presumption into them by a pre-determined bias.

However, Daniel 11:40ff., and many many passages in Revelation, as well as Jesus' own words about such things as all the tribes of the earth seeing Him coming on the clouds of heaven, and the sign of Son of Man appearing in heaven, and the time of trouble such as never was nor shall be again -- none of these prophecies can be credibly claimed to have been fulfilled before our day.
I do not think your explanations fit the verses and their context. And if you would believe apostles to be inspired, we could add other parts to the puzzle:

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5

"The time that remains is short."
1 Cor. 7:29

...the ends of the ages are arrived.
1Cor 10:11

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51


"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."

Jm 5:7-9

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2

... encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Heb 10:25

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.”
Rev 1:7

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Behold, I am coming quickly:"
Rev 22:7

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near. "
Rev 22:10

"And, behold, I come quickly;"
Rev 22:12

"...Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
Rev 22:20
 
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WilliamLhk

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I do not think your explanations fit the verses and their context. And if you would believe apostles to be inspired, we could add other parts to the puzzle:

"But this is that having been spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it will be in the last days...the sun will be darkened, moon into blood, blood, fire, vapor..."
Act 2:16

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5

"The time that remains is short."
1 Cor. 7:29

...the ends of the ages are arrived.
1Cor 10:11

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51


"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."

Jm 5:7-9

But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.
Heb 1:2

... encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
Heb 10:25

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,’ and ‘every eye will see him, even those who pierced him’; and all peoples on earth ‘will mourn because of him.’ So shall it be! Amen.”
Rev 1:7

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Behold, I am coming quickly:"
Rev 22:7

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near. "
Rev 22:10

"And, behold, I come quickly;"
Rev 22:12

"...Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
Rev 22:20
Like so many prognosticators online, you game is all offense and no defense. You have refused to address the scriptures I have presented of all the End Times prophecies that have clearly not yet been fulfilled, including a large part of Matthew 24. Since you are unable to do so, you just continue to post lists of selected so-called proof-texts that really don't prove what you claim. They just prove that you can only read into the Word what you already believe it should say.

But, like I said, that is the nature of most online discussions about the End Times.
 
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WilliamLhk

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There will be one Second Coming as understood to be Jesus's Return. Before then will Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection event for the living in Christ and them who have died in Christ.
"There will be one Second Coming," but "before then will [be] Jesus's coming..."

Amazing that you cannot see the contradiction in these two phrases. Essentially you are saying that there will be two second comings of Christ into this earth's affairs, but only one of them is entitled to be called "Second Coming." Gobblyspeak.
 
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