The Last Day

coraline · Feb 8, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
The last day spoken by John chapter 6:39-54, I believe is when the church age will close. The rapture will occur and then the time of the tribulation will start. THere are last days concerning the church and last days that concern Israel.

THe last days of the time of the church started at the beginning of the first coming of Christ and will conclude at the rapture.

The last days of Israel begins at the start of the tribulation and ends with the millennial kingdom

Resurrections will happen at different times. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints after the resurrection of Christ. THere will be a resurrection of the dead and alive at the time of the rapture. A resurrection will occur at the end of the millennium kingdom.. This is when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. Also the great white throne judgement will occur which is the judgement and resurrection of the wicked.

I believe that the 1000 years spoken of in revelation 20 is a literal time period.

The church age never closes (Eph 3:21)

His kingdom is forever and will never be destroyed.

And will never be replaced by an earthly Jewish kingdom.

God is not through with the people of Israel. The door of salvation is open, eternal in Jesus Christ the Messiah. What could be better than that?

God is through with the nation of Israel. There is no more purpose for it. We, redeemed Jews and Gentiles are now the holy nation, a kingdom of priests, the heavenly Zion.
The people who want a future for Israel as a nation would require them to return to sacrifices (that have to do with sin). That is better? No way. That is actually anti-Semitism, relegating them to a return to obsolete sacrifices and observances that were only meant to point to Christ.

Christ broke down the middle wall of partition. Why would He need to build it up again?

The last day was the last day of the Old Covenant, heaven & earth.

Well, it was really fun, but I have to go now!

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

Bible2 said:
The time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be (as is sometimes taught) the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Bible2, thank you again for such a generous posting.

I agree with most of what you write here with perhaps a difference of opinion on the church of God going through the tribulation or time of testing which shall come upon the whole world.

Other than that I think that your comments concerning the literal and physical mark of the beast are right on, and even practiced today amongst Satan worshippers as you have mentioned.

Thank you again in Christ Jesus our Lord!

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

yeshuasavedme said:
It goes back to the beginning, to the fall of Adam and his being cast down from the third heaven where Paradise is, and the promise of the restoration of all things by the Seed
[the Son of Man in heaven extended by His Living Spirit into the new creation human being "Firstborn son of God for earth" garment which He donned to be Kinsman/Redeemer at the incarnation, to come in flesh as -Isaiah 59]

of the Woman

[Zion above, spiritualized as a woman from Genesis 3 to Rev 22],

in that Adam was taken to the third heaven

[the Hebrew word, "taken", transliterated to English "laqach" means "to remove from one place to another for a specific purpose": "to go get; fetch; marry"; etc..]:
to rule over his dominion as high king and high priest of it, in fellowship with the Creator daily, and the guard of Paradise [really: Shamar means to guard, and is translated "rest" in KJV when Adam was taken way from earth below/raptured and set in the Garden to labor for God there, and to "keep/guard the Garden"

When Adam became defiled, he was driven out/cast down -the Hebrew also means "to divorce" and the Woman [Zion above] would not get the living stones [Hebrew "eben"] born from Adam's loins, as holy human being sons for God [Hebrew ben] to build [Hebrew banah] up Zion above, for the Glory.

That is the purpose Adam was made one spirit, and male and female, with the seed in his loins already written in the Book of Lfie and written there as to their parts and pieces and boundaried times [Acts 17], to come forth in their season as living stones to build up Zion above for the Glory to indwell.

Paradise is in the third heaven, and the stories of heaven [sha-mayim] were all stretched out from the earth between the divided in two waters [mayim] on day 2 of creation week. So Adam was taken to heaven's third stretched out story and set in Paradise there, as the firstborn living son of God of the human being kind, and made a guard of Paradise, and was created to bring forth the building stones [sons] for the Temple not made with hands, for the Glory to indwell. Malachi 2:15 states Adam was made one spirit and male and female to bring forth the [human being] sons for God's temple to be built -for His glory to indwell

At Adam's divorce [being driven out and cast down and no entry as Adam, again, and the irrevocably defiled forever ruined temple], the "Woman of the Spirit/Zion above" was then a barren widow; but the plan for the redemption and ransom of the kingdom lost and the seed of the Adam to build up Zion in the New Man name, was already prepared, from the beginning of creation: YHWH would come in flesh as Kinsman/Redeemer; ransom the lost seed and the lost kingdom; and unite the heavens with the earth, again, in the restoration of all things; and the adopted sons will be dwelling in Paradise where Adam was cast down from, and be the "sons and the "married wife" of the formerly barren Widow/Zion of the heavenlies; and the "heavens will be planted" by the adopted sons of the second creation Firstborn Son of God/Messiah in flesh, and the Patriarchal, ever living, Everlasting Father, High Priest and High King of earth.

So to answer your question without further detail from the Word: the Church is not going to dwell on earth below, as their purpose for being adopted is fulfilled, and they are transformed to the glory bodies, and dwell in heaven to rule over earth below, and are building stones for the building up of Zion above, which Zion below is the "waymark.Sign" to.

No: our eternal home is not earth below, but heaven above, where Adam lost position as son of God in the fall, and got driven out of, at the fall.

We go back to heaven above, the third story, in the fulfilled purpose which Adam did not fulfill when he got driven out of the third heaven, which was to live his millennial "day" and be be transformed to glory for the building of Zion, as all his sons/seed would have been, in their times.

As adopted sons of God, and as the City being built/ Zion of the Spirit, we are the "Ishyah"/wife of the Firstborn who adopts us, and being perfected in body, soul, and spirit -and with the New Man name- we "Plant the heavens", and rule earth -if we are found faithful- from the heavens and "found/hold the earth" as the reset "pillars" of it: -Psalm 75:2,3, in the Hebrew shows God "resets the foundations of earth" when He raptures His Congregation from earth and casts down the principalities and powers, the rulers and judges in the heavenlies, who have not kept their charge in faith [Psalm 82, in the Hebrew, warns them -the unfaithful elohym- that they shall die like Adam, the one prince, and be cast down, like him].

yeshuasavedme, thank you again also for such a generous post and I must say that I find your commentary fascinating to say the least.

Would you refer me to some writings which may speak more on these things which you speak of?

I enjoy your writing very much and will say thank you again for being so generous in your comments.

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

bibletruth469 said:
The last day spoken by John chapter 6:39-54, I believe is when the church age will close. The rapture will occur and then the time of the tribulation will start. THere are last days concerning the church and last days that concern Israel.

THe last days of the time of the church started at the beginning of the first coming of Christ and will conclude at the rapture.

The last days of Israel begins at the start of the tribulation and ends with the millennial kingdom

Resurrections will happen at different times. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints after the resurrection of Christ. THere will be a resurrection of the dead and alive at the time of the rapture. A resurrection will occur at the end of the millennium kingdom.. This is when the Old Testament saints will be resurrected. Also the great white throne judgement will occur which is the judgement and resurrection of the wicked.

I believe that the 1000 years spoken of in revelation 20 is a literal time period.

Thank you for your reply bibletruth! My thoughts are pretty much where yours are at here for the time being. I'm always open for change although every day seems to be more and more of realization of seeing that 'day' approaching.

Thanks again in Christ Jesus our Lord

yeshuasavedme · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
yeshuasavedme, thank you again also for such a generous post and I must say that I find your commentary fascinating to say the least.

Would you refer me to some writings which may speak more on these things which you speak of?

I enjoy your writing very much and will say thank you again for being so generous in your comments.

They are my own understandings from studying the Word. The story of redemption is much more fascinating than we are taught, and from beginning to end it is rich indeed, from the Word.
I also use the Book of Enoch and the history Book of Jasher, and other historical Jewish writings -esp the DSS.

PS: when I have a new revelation from the Word with the understanding the Light brings, I sometimes do a search to see if others have had the same understanding, and find that, yes, others have, through the centuries.

Eph 1 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

yeshuasavedme said:
They are my own conclusions from studying the Word. The story of redemption is much more fascinating than we are taught, but it is rich indeed, from the Word.
I also use the Book of Enoch and the history Book of Jasher, and other historical Jewish writings -esp the DSS.

Yes, I believe that the word of God is infinitely rich in its ability to reveal these things. I will be sure to read much more of your commentary in other threads and posts, so thank you so very much for your own rich contributions to this wonderous topic.

I'm looking forward to more of your writings.

All thanks in Christ Jesus our Lord

n2thelight · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
You're the 2nd person now who has sent me a commentary which speaks of the last day (title of this thread) as the last day of our life, rather than the last day itself.

And it's clear that you deny the bodily resurrection of the dead. I'm not sure why you would deny that when it is perfectly clear what we are talking about here. I didn't mention soul sleep, we are talking about the resurrection of the dead bodily.

Why would you deny that is my question to you.

Let's go back to 1 Thess 4 for a minute.

IF the dead are already raised and with Christ, then why would they rise first, before those who are alive and remain?

You're telling me that they're already in heaven with their spiritual bodies so why does Paul say that they shall rise first?

According to your belief, they have already been raised, right?

Okay,let's see if I can clarify,....

There are three ages written of in scripture

1-Age before flesh,ie before the fall of satan,the beginning(not Adam and Eve)

2-After the fall of satan,which is the age we're in now(age of the flesh)

3-Age when we shall return to how we were,and always meant to be(no flesh)

So to answer your question from the OP,the last day,is the Day of the Lord,which is the start of the millennium..........

Now as for you stating that I don't believe in the resurrection,that's not true,I believe what scripture says,and that is,the flesh shall return to the dust from whence it came....Nowhere in scripture is it taught that said dust returns....Paul made it perfectly clear that we have two bodies(spiritual and a physical)...When we die,the body that we've always had,comes forth(the spiritual)and the flesh is just that,dust,dirt .....

As for those in heaven,Im not telling you they are there,scripture says so

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

They do rise first,as they rise when they die

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died) in Jesus will God bring with him."

These are the same people under the alter,of Rev 6,so can you please tell me how they come back with Him,if they are not already there?

Now let's go to luke,many people take the following as just a parable,I see it as Christ describbing exactly what happens at death

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Lazarus was carried into heaven by the angels of God, while the rich man's body was buried in the ground and his soul went to Hades, the holding place before being destroyed by hell fire.

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

This is a parable about two men that actually lived, and when both died, the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them, but could not go there. Our Heavenly Father is the Father of the living and not the dead. Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediate to heaven. Those that did not overcome cannot be with those that overcame in this earth age, for they are separated. All souls can actually see the throne of God from where they are. Those that are on the rich man's side are being held for that great judgment day.

This dirt body that we are in now,will not be raised,it's only dirt,period.....

Simple question for you,what kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman????

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

n2thelight said:
Okay,let's see if I can clarify,....

There are three ages written of in scripture

1-Age before flesh,ie before the fall of satan,the beginning(not Adam and Eve)

2-After the fall of satan,which is the age we're in now(age of the flesh)

3-Age when we shall return to how we were,and always meant to be(no flesh)

So to answer your question from the OP,the last day,is the Day of the Lord,which is the start of the millennium..........

Now as for you stating that I don't believe in the resurrection,that's not true,I believe what scripture says,and that is,the flesh shall return to the dust from whence it came....Nowhere in scripture is it taught that said dust returns....Paul made it perfectly clear that we have two bodies(spiritual and a physical)...When we die,the body that we've always had,comes forth(the spiritual)and the flesh is just that,dust,dirt .....

As for those in heaven,Im not telling you they are there,scripture says so

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

They do rise first,as they rise when they die

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep(died) in Jesus will God bring with him."

These are the same people under the alter,of Rev 6,so can you please tell me how they come back with Him,if they are not already there?

Now let's go to luke,many people take the following as just a parable,I see it as Christ describbing exactly what happens at death

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Lazarus was carried into heaven by the angels of God, while the rich man's body was buried in the ground and his soul went to Hades, the holding place before being destroyed by hell fire.

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

This is a parable about two men that actually lived, and when both died, the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them, but could not go there. Our Heavenly Father is the Father of the living and not the dead. Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediate to heaven. Those that did not overcome cannot be with those that overcame in this earth age, for they are separated. All souls can actually see the throne of God from where they are. Those that are on the rich man's side are being held for that great judgment day.

This dirt body that we are in now,will not be raised,it's only dirt,period.....

Simple question for you,what kind of body did Christ have before being born of woman????

Thanks again for responding n2thelight, although I see that you avoided the question I asked.

Here it is again.

You say that the resurrection is past already (that's a huge problem in itself) and that the dead are already raised, correct?

So, why does 1 Thess4 speak of the 'dead' rising first, and then those who are alive and remain being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

Why?

Why would the dead be raised first if they're already raised according to your beliefs?

n2thelight · Feb 8, 2014

Old Timer said:
Thanks again for responding n2thelight, although I see that you avoided the question I asked.

Here it is again.

You say that the resurrection is past already (that's a huge problem in itself) and that the dead are already raised, correct?

So, why does 1 Thess4 speak of the 'dead' rising first, and then those who are alive and remain being caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

Why?

Why would the dead be raised first if they're already raised according to your beliefs?

Let's look at it

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him.

Im not avoiding the question,just think you are not understanding my answer,be that as it may,that's the best I can give you........

Also I didn't say the dead were already raised,scripture says so............

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

n2thelight said:
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him.

Im not avoiding the question,just think you are not understanding my answer,be that as it may,that's the best I can give you........

Also I didn't say the dead were already raised,scripture says so............

If that's the best you can give me then I'll simply disagree and leave it at that, because that's not an answer at all.

I agree that they're already with him because that's what the bible teaches, that there are the 'spirits' of just men made perfect.

Obviously the scriptures are then plainly showing us that these dead in Christ are being 'raised' from the dead to meet the Lord in the air.

But again, if you'd like to deny the bodily resurrection then there's nothing that I can do about it except to try and show you the truth through the scriptures.

Old Timer · Feb 8, 2014

I always like to ask myself, now who would like me to believe that there is not literal and physical resurrection of the body?

Who would like us to believe that?

Notice also that the church of God which is the body of Christ is said to be his 'flesh' and 'bone'.

bibletruth469 · Feb 9, 2014

coraline said:
The church age never closes (Eph 3:21) His kingdom is forever and will never be destroyed. And will never be replaced by an earthly Jewish kingdom. God is not through with the people of Israel. The door of salvation is open, eternal in Jesus Christ the Messiah. What could be better than that? God is through with the nation of Israel. There is no more purpose for it. We, redeemed Jews and Gentiles are now the holy nation, a kingdom of priests, the heavenly Zion. The people who want a future for Israel as a nation would require them to return to sacrifices (that have to do with sin). That is better? No way. That is actually anti-Semitism, relegating them to a return to obsolete sacrifices and observances that were only meant to point to Christ. Christ broke down the middle wall of partition. Why would He need to build it up again? The last day was the last day of the Old Covenant, heaven & earth. Well, it was really fun, but I have to go now!

The church age does close at the rapture ; God will redirect His focus on Israel .

Yes. The kingdom after the mellinimum will never be destroyed.

The Jews and Gentiles and the saints are separate groups of people. God is not through with Israel or ever will be.

Yes, the Jews and Gentiles and are separate , however are merged as one people only in the sense of salvation in Christ . That's when for example you will have a messianic Jew ( a believer in Christ ) they are still a Jew .

No more sacrifices , that is done away with the law, however there will be sacrifices in the tribulation because there will be unbelieving Jews that will not yet believe in the true Messiah , Jesus Christ .

The last day is explained in the previous post.

Old Timer · Feb 9, 2014

I would add that scripture does show the church of God being completed, and that he shall present it to Himself a glorious church without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Isn't that what the marriage of the Lamb to his wife is all about?

As for Israel, Paul tells us that they are blinded in part until the 'fulness' of the Gentiles be come in.

That's when I believe the church will be complete, when the 'fulness' of the Gentiles come in.

n2thelight · Feb 9, 2014

Old Timer said:
If that's the best you can give me then I'll simply disagree and leave it at that, because that's not an answer at all.

I agree that they're already with him because that's what the bible teaches, that there are the 'spirits' of just men made perfect.

Obviously the scriptures are then plainly showing us that these dead in Christ are being 'raised' from the dead to meet the Lord in the air.

But again, if you'd like to deny the bodily resurrection then there's nothing that I can do about it except to try and show you the truth through the scriptures.

That's all good,we can disagree,however curiosity question,Mosses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the mount what kind of body did they have,also ,what kind of body did Christ have before He was born of woman?

Old Timer · Feb 9, 2014

n2thelight said:
That's all good,we can disagree,however curiosity question,Mosses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the mount what kind of body did they have,also ,what kind of body did Christ have before He was born of woman?

Excellent questions which I'm not sure that scripture answers. Maybe someone else can answer these although I can't without studying it more and even then I am not sure that scripture is going to answer.

That aside, 1 Thess 4 is as plain as it gets in stating that the dead in Christ shall 'rise' (that's raised from the dead), and yet you refuse to acknowledge this truth.

Let's face it, your answer wasn't an answer, it was the best you could do in order to maintain your insisting that the dead are not raised bodily.

Old Timer · Feb 9, 2014

Again I would wonder 'why' anyone would deny the bodily resurrection of the dead when it is stated clearly in scripture.

The perfect example for us being the LORD raised bodily and having flesh and bone. The believers who have the firstfruits of the Spirit waiting for the redemption of our body. These vile bodies being changed in an instant and being fashioned like his glorious body. Our not knowing what we shall be but that we shall be like him.

I think that these things are undeniable and yet they're denied by professing believers.

Old Timer · Feb 9, 2014

It's also one of the fundamental truths of the Christian faith in order to be saved according to Paul, to believe that Christ died for our sins and that God has raised him from the dead.

Old Timer · Feb 9, 2014

Then of course there are the words of Christ himself stating that there will be a resurrection at the last day.

Passing this off as the last day of our lives is found nowhere in the context.

Old Timer · Feb 9, 2014

It's the gospel itself, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 9, 2014

Old Timer said:
Excellent questions which I'm not sure that scripture answers. Maybe someone else can answer these although I can't without studying it more and even then I am not sure that scripture is going to answer.

That aside, 1 Thess 4 is as plain as it gets in stating that the dead in Christ shall 'rise' (that's raised from the dead), and yet you refuse to acknowledge this truth.

Let's face it, your answer wasn't an answer, it was the best you could do in order to maintain your insisting that the dead are not raised bodily.

Elijah is in his own flesh body in which he was raptured to Eden above without dying or being transformed, and Moses is with him there, in his own resurrected but not changed to glory flesh [like Lazarus was raised, to die again], and they appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, talking with Him about His upcoming death in Jerusalem because they are the two eyewitnesses representing the Law and the Prophets for the Jews, who will come down to Jerusalem and preach the incarnation of Messiah, the life, the death, the resurrection and the glory of Him after His ascension, to the nation of Israel from the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years, then they will be killed by the man of sin, and ....resurrected in transformed bodies and ascend to heaven after 3 1/2 days.

They are the two standing there who would not die until they saw Him coming in His power....

Israel is the sign nation, and everything that happens to them is a sign.

Moses' death was a sign of the sin of striking the
Rock/Christ, twice.
Moses was raised in his own body without being transformed, and the devil had to be rebuked by Michael the archangel who wanted his body for destruction/corruption; But God raised Moses from the dead in his same untransformed body, and he ascended to heaven to be with Elijah as one of the two eyewitnesses who will come preach in Jerusalem.

The Word says we "take words" and return to Him when we backslide, and Moses was told to" speak to the Rock" for water after the 40 years of wandering, for the water out of the Rock. Moses struck the Rock and you cannot strike Christ twice.

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