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Featured The Last Adam A Life Giving Spirit

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Minister Monardo, Nov 12, 2020.

  1. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1 Corinthians 15:45. And so it is written, The first man Adam became a living being.
    The last Adam a life-giving spirit.

    2 Corinthians 5:16.
    Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.
    Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know no longer.

    Regardless of what you have learned about Jesus Christ and how He walked as a man
    on the earth, what matters now is what you know of Him as a Life Giving Spirit.

    2 Corinthians 3:17. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    John 17:3.
    And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and
    Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

    Eternal Life is an experience in the Now Faith of The Son of God, Jesus Christ.
    Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things
    not seen.
     
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  2. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    you might of opened up Pandora's box :)
     
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  3. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    John 3:6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    If anyone wants to share the genealogy of wisdom, that is fine.
     
  4. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Can any man forbid water?
     
  5. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Acts 8:
    36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
    37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
    And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”
    38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down
    into the water, and he baptized him.
     
  6. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
     
  7. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans 5:10. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death
    of His Son,
    much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
     
  8. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Jesus is the source of Life, the Creato of life, He is Eternal life hence He became the source of the Spirit dispensed as He promised His disciples and the One who sent the Spirit and is the life giving of the spirit. He is the fountain of life, the living water that only He can satisfy. He is the way, the truth and the life.

    John 1:1-10
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.


    John 3:14-15
    "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

    John 3:36
    36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,

    John 4:14
    14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."

    John 5:39-40
    39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

    John 6:27
    27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you,

    John 6:40
    40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

    John 6:47-48
    47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48 " I am the bread of life.

    John 6:51
    " I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

    John 6:54
    54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

    John 6:68
    Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

    John 10:28
    I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.


    1 John 2:25
    This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

    1 John 5:13-14
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    1 John 5:20
    we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

    He is the bread of life, the living water, the source of eternal life, the One who sent the Spirit, the giver of life and its source, our Creator, Sustainer and the only One in whom salvation is found.

    hope this helps !!!
     
  9. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Going back a moment to this question, for the sake of the forum, here is the relevant narrative.
    Acts 10:
    44
    While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
    45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
    47 Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received
    the Holy Spirit just as we have?

    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to
    stay a few days.

    Now in context, and viewing the full question, the Gentiles to whom this was directed had been
    born again from above upon hearing the Gospel, in part as a sign to Peter and his companions,
    that the Gospel was for the Nations, not just Jacob's descendants. They still were water baptized,
    even after being born of the Spirit, as the Lord commanded.
     
  10. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It's worth noting that verse 37 is generally agreed to be a late addition to the text, and also should be understood in the context the historic Christian practice of the Rite of Baptism. Namely adult converts were expected to go through a process of catechesis, such persons were known as catechumens; and at Baptism they would be asked, "Do you believe..." and they would answer in the affirmative. It's still how the majority of Christians practice the Rite of Baptism today. And these baptismal creedal formulas are the foundation of all the historical Creeds of the Church. It's why we see the proto-creeds, such as those by St. Irenaeus, split into three parts, also why the Old Roman Symbol (the basis for the Apostles' Creed) and the Nicene Creed have a three-part structure:

    Belief in God the Father the maker of all things.
    Belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pilate, was crucified, dead, buried, and rose again.
    Belief in the Holy Spirit, the Christian Church, the resurrection of the dead, and the life everlasting.

    Why three parts? Because Christian baptismal practice was three-fold. Standard procedure was three-fold immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Or, barring a sufficient quantity of water for immersion, three-fold affusion (aka pouring) in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    So the context of this particular statement is likely borne out of the Church's own historical procedure. What this passage doesn't do is what some try and make it do, and that is to deny Baptism to young children. Because the ancient and universal practice of the Christian Church has always been to administer baptism to the children of believers. And so entire families, indeed entire households, would be baptized (just as we see in the Acts of the Apostles), not just the adult converts but also their children; and also children born to believing parents would in the same way be baptized. This is clearly evidenced by everything we read about in the earliest days of Christianity.

    This makes sense, because this is exactly how conversion to Judaism worked. A convert to Judaism would, among other things, go through a ritual washing in the mikveh, this is the precursor to Christian Baptism. And two thousand years ago, just as today, when parents converted, their children would also be converted, this meant circumcision for sons, and ritual washing in the mikveh for everyone. Without the mikveh washing the conversion was not accomplished. And so, quite naturally, early Christians took it for granted that conversion to Christianity, through Baptism, wasn't limited to adults, but was for entire families. It's why, again, we read that entire households were baptized. Because this was normal, it simply wouldn't have occurred to the Apostles or any of the early Christians to do it any differently.

    The difference between the use of the mikveh in conversion to Judaism and Christian Baptism is that Christian Baptism receives its authority from Jesus Christ, as part of His command for His Church to make disciples and baptize them, and that this is done in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. But the language surrounding Christian Baptism still carried over from the use of the mikveh for conversion, for example the language of new birth. Which is why Jesus speaks of the new birth as being of "water and the Spirit", and questions Nicodemus asking, "How are you a rabbi in Israel and yet you don't know this?" Nicodemus, a rabbi, a teacher, an instructor on Jewish law and practice, would have known that when a Gentile undergoes the washing during conversion that it brought about a kind of new birth, being born afresh as a child of God's covenant. There is an intentional link between Jewish conversion practice and the institution of Christian Baptism; in the same way that there is an intentional link between the Jewish Passover and the Lord's Supper.

    So "If you believe" in Acts 8:37 isn't about gatekeeping, but about the association of faith with Baptism. Which has always existed in Christian practice. Young children--including infants--are baptized and raised in the faith, and their faith matures as they are nurtured by the Church; in the same way that an adult convert is baptized, and their faith is also nurtured by the Church. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ says the Apostles (Romans 10:17), and whether that involves being baptized as a baby and being raised in the faith or converting as an adult and receiving Baptism as an adult convert, it is the same Word, the same Faith, and indeed the same Jesus Christ who brings us into His Body and makes us members and partakers of Himself through His Word and Sacraments.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    This was before the house of Cornelius. I'm surprised that it didn't come up in Acts 15.
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for your informative post. Here's a question about infant baptism.

    I have an agnostic friend who was raised Lutheran. He was likely baptized as an infant and went through catechism. As an adult he is disconnected from the church. Not in a spiteful way. He visits now and then, and has many Christian friends. He visited my church once on a Sunday AM, and has come to Saturday AM mens' events. How is someone like that viewed by "the Christian Church". (quote from part three of your baptismal confession) Can an infant baptism be undone? Or is he baptized into the Church (capital C) by the faith of his parents? Curious about your take on this. Thanks.
     
  13. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Yet another great topic. Thanks.

    We received something from both Adams. We had nothing to do with either one.
    Through the disobedience of the first Adam we received condemnation and death. (the result of one trespass)
    Through the obedience of the last Adam we received justification and life. (the result of one righteous act)

    Romans 5:18-19
    Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
     
  14. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Good point. After Acts 8, Phillip in not mentioned again until chapter 21.
    Acts 21:8. And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea:
    and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and
    abode with him.
    Specifying "one of the seven", and the one evangelizing in Acts 8, indicating this is not the
    disciple Philip, whom Jesus addresses in the Gospel
    John 14:9. Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip?
    He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Seeing he was a resident of Caesarea, and is not mentioned in Acts 15, we could conclude that he
    was not in attendance at the council at Jerusalem. As you mention, Peter gave his testimony regarding
    the house of Cornelius, but also the vision he received at the house of Simon the tanner, by which
    he claimed authority to speak on behalf of the Gentiles, and not simply offer an opinion.
     
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  15. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Makes for an interesting contrast, in a more immediate context, to the baptism of John.
    Mark 1:
    4
    John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the
    remission of sins.
    5
    Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized
    by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
    6
    Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate
    locusts and wild honey.
    7 And he preached, saying, There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap
    I am not worthy to stoop down and loose.
    8 I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

    Water baptism and confession of sin were linked. Does confessing belief in Jesus Christ
    separate baptism and confession? Both are still practiced in the church as sacraments.
    Apollos was preaching, having only received the baptism of John. The baptism with the
    Holy Spirit seems to relate more to ministry and the formation of a church body, rather
    than an individual believing the Gospel, and being baptized in water.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The Baptism with the Holy Spirit was yet another baptism. Initiated at Pentecost.

    Acts 1:5
    For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

    Acts 2:38
    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 8:16
    because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Acts 10:47
    “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
     
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  17. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    God's gracious work is indelible and irrevocable, one can't become unbaptized. A person can walk away from their faith, can walk away from Christ, but God's word and promise can't be nullified. It's like a person can't change the fact that they were born from their parents, they can leave their parents, they can reject their parents, they can refuse to benefit from their parents' love and kindness, but they can't change the fact that they were born and their parents are their parents.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  18. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Are you talking about water baptism, or the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
    1 Thessalonians 5:19. Quench not the Spirit.
    Matthew 25:8. And the foolish said to the wise, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are quenched.
     
  19. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I was tempted, but I best defer to him on this question. Lutherans have a very tight view of what church membership means and I`m pretty sure the comments were more about that issue.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I think they call it "Chrismation". Which links the two. (as I understand it)
    Probably a reference to Acts chapter two. Be baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    But many of us understand it as a subsequent event as in Acts chapter eight.

    Acts 8:15-17
    When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2020
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