The Lake of Fire

[Glass*Soul]

Mary Burwell once commented in General Apologetics that she believed the Lake of Fire in Revelation to be God. I find that to be a psychologically satisfying idea.

As the book of Revelation rushes to its climax, John envisions all of Babylon smashed, not just what was evil in it but all that was good as well, the marrying and giving in marriage, the sound of the flute, and the light of the lamp. The old heaven and earth pass away and a great deal that once was is thrown into an everlasting fire along with that wily old serpent, the Adversarial Voice. The opposites that were differentiated into incredible richness and fecundity at creation are torn everlastingly and irreparably asunder. What remain are a new heaven and a new earth as calculatedly beautiful as a Faberge egg.

If the lake of fire is an eternal hell, as many read it to be, it creates an intolerable one-sidedness. It leaves the Christian God eternally divorced from the solidified/corrupted aspects of his spoken will, and leaves redeemed mankind divorced from the very tension of opposites that allows him to be aware of himself.​

As C. G. Jung put it, "No doubt this [the lake of fire as an eternal hell] is meant as a final solution to the terrible conflict of existence. The solution, however, as here presented, does not consist in the reconciliation of the opposites, but in their final severance, by which means those whose destiny it is to be saved can save themselves by identifying with the bright pneumatic side of God."​

If the lake of fire is God, Jung's problem is solved.​

I wonder what the consequences would be for either God or mankind if the Lake of Fire is indeed God reabsorbing aspects of his spoken will from which he has been estranged (and which have been altered/worked on during that estrangement)? For a human being, such an experience might be a painful/ecstatic psychological break-through. Is it blasphemous to imagine how it might feel to God?​

Might the new heaven and the new earth become a place where something unexpected could happen? ​

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Two historic Christian doctrines help alleviate this statisticity.

The first is theosis, or union with the divine nature (essence/being/substance) through Christ, the God-man. Theosis begins with our justification, continues through our sanctification, is completed to a satisfactory level in postmortum purgation, and then continues on forever.

The second is the transcendence and immutability of God. God is an infinite being. Even if we progressed in theosis at an inconceivable rate, we would never reach the tiniest fraction of the potential for growth in God.

Indeed, it is precisely because of my believe that God is the Ground of Being and in theosis that I believe the tormented in hell are actually the ones who are absorbed into their own nothingness (a near-annihilationism, but not quite), whereas the people of God continue growing dynamically forever within the divine infinity.

 

[Yekcidmij]

If the lake of fire is an eternal hell, as many read it to be, it creates an intolerable one-sidedness. It leaves the Christian God eternally divorced from the solidified/corrupted aspects of his spoken will, and leaves redeemed mankind divorced from the very tension of opposites that allows him to be aware of himself.​

That's a packed statement. What are the corrupted aspects of his spoken will?

 

[Tavita]

Mary Burwell once commented in General Apologetics that she believed the Lake of Fire in Revelation to be God. I find that to be a psychologically satisfying idea.

As the book of Revelation rushes to its climax, John envisions all of Babylon smashed, not just what was evil in it but all that was good as well, the marrying and giving in marriage, the sound of the flute, and the light of the lamp. The old heaven and earth pass away and a great deal that once was is thrown into an everlasting fire along with that wily old serpent, the Adversarial Voice. The opposites that were differentiated into incredible richness and fecundity at creation are torn everlastingly and irreparably asunder. What remain are a new heaven and a new earth as calculatedly beautiful as a Faberge egg.

If the lake of fire is an eternal hell, as many read it to be, it creates an intolerable one-sidedness. It leaves the Christian God eternally divorced from the solidified/corrupted aspects of his spoken will, and leaves redeemed mankind divorced from the very tension of opposites that allows him to be aware of himself.​

As C. G. Jung put it, "No doubt this [the lake of fire as an eternal hell] is meant as a final solution to the terrible conflict of existence. The solution, however, as here presented, does not consist in the reconciliation of the opposites, but in their final severance, by which means those whose destiny it is to be saved can save themselves by identifying with the bright pneumatic side of God."​

If the lake of fire is God, Jung's problem is solved.​

I wonder what the consequences would be for either God or mankind if the Lake of Fire is indeed God reabsorbing aspects of his spoken will from which he has been estranged (and which have been altered/worked on during that estrangement)? For a human being, such an experience might be a painful/ecstatic psychological break-through. Is it blasphemous to imagine how it might feel to God?​

Might the new heaven and the new earth become a place where something unexpected could happen? ​

There are many christians out there, and myself included, that believe the Lake of Fire is God Himself. This view is heretical to the majority of christians, as they feel we discard God's justice (amongst other things). I believe God IS a God of justice, and sin will have it's reward.

You said, "I wonder what the consequences would be for either God or mankind if the Lake of Fire is indeed God reabsorbing aspects of his spoken will from which he has been estranged (and which have been altered/worked on during that estrangement)? For a human being, such an experience might be a painful/ecstatic psychological break-through. Is it blasphemous to imagine how it might feel to God?"

I cannot believe God would have a 'place' set aside in His sinless new heavens and earth for the torture of countless millions. God's punishment and discipline is meant to be restorative, and how painful it will be. The outcome would be that ALL knees shall bow, ALL tongues confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, whether things in the Heavens, on the Earth, and under the Earth. No-one can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zadok7000]

There are many christians out there, and myself included, that believe the Lake of Fire is God Himself.

He is a Consuming Fire.
Deut. 4:24, Deut. 9:3, Heb. 12:29.

I cannot believe God would have a 'place' set aside in His sinless new heavens and earth for the torture of countless millions.

Lake of Fire = 2nd Death.

 

[brimac]

He is a Consuming Fire.
Deut. 4:24, Deut. 9:3, Heb. 12:29.




Lake of Fire = 2nd Death.

I agree, the lake of fire does equal the second and philosophically speaking I find no problem with the possibility that God is figuartively that lake of fire, not that God himself is death but that anyone who is not covered with the blood of Christ will be consumed in His presence.

 

[Yekcidmij]

but that anyone who is not covered with the blood of Christ will be consumed in His presence.

How can sin be in the presence of holiness?

 

[NumberOneSon]

How can sin be in the presence of holiness?

Hmmm...doesn't Job 1:6 say that the devil presented himself before God and they had a little conversation about Job?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Yekcidmij]

Hmmm...doesn't Job 1:6 say that the devil presented himself before God and they had a little conversation about Job?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Sure does.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Hmmm...doesn't Job 1:6 say that the devil presented himself before God and they had a little conversation about Job?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

I guess you could say sinful humans live in God's presence too since He is omnipresent.

 

[Yekcidmij]

not that God himself is death but that anyone who is not covered with the blood of Christ will be consumed in His presence.

As I was.....I see what you're saying. Interesting thought.

 

[Tavita]

I agree, the lake of fire does equal the second and philosophically speaking I find no problem with the possibility that God is figuartively that lake of fire, not that God himself is death but that anyone who is not covered with the blood of Christ will be consumed in His presence.

Could it be that God consumes the sin/flesh (I don't mean blood and bones), rather than the sinner himself/herself?

Let's think about how this works in the christian life. We were sinners, were born again, washed in the blood, then what? What is the purpose of the trials and tribulations... the fire so to speak, in a person's life?

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

 

[brimac]

How can sin be in the presence of holiness?

It cant! That is the point!

 

[brimac]

Could it be that God consumes the sin/flesh (I don't mean blood and bones), rather than the sinner himself/herself?

Let's think about how this works in the christian life. We were sinners, were born again, washed in the blood, then what? What is the purpose of the trials and tribulations... the fire so to speak, in a person's life?

1Co 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
1Co 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I guess anything is possible! I do tend to disagree with the universalist position though, simply because I see many scriptures which seem to contradict the notion. However, as I said at times waht my finite mind sees as a contradiction may in fact sometimes just be a place where deeper understanding is at that time lacking.

 

[brimac]

As I was.....I see what you're saying. Interesting thought.

Thank you! Your "As I was.." made me chuckle as I too am a veteran!

 

[angelmom01]

Tavita, I like your train of thought!!

So 'marking' this thread of 'later'.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Could it be that God consumes the sin/flesh (I don't mean blood and bones), rather than the sinner himself/herself?

I view "Babylon" as the Lake of Fire, the OC LAW of Death/Hades/Flesh.

Reve 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.

Reve 19:3 and a second time they said, `Alleluia;' and her smoke doth come up--to the ages of the ages!

 

[Glass*Soul]

Two historic Christian doctrines help alleviate this statisticity.

The first is theosis, or union with the divine nature (essence/being/substance) through Christ, the God-man. Theosis begins with our justification, continues through our sanctification, is completed to a satisfactory level in postmortum purgation, and then continues on forever.

On my drive home today I posed myself the question as to what it might mean to say one had reached a "satisfactory level" of sanctification. The first thought that came to my mind was a supersaturated mixture that suddenly crystallizes -- becomes something of an entirely different nature.

The second is the transcendence and immutability of God. God is an infinite being. Even if we progressed in theosis at an inconceivable rate, we would never reach the tiniest fraction of the potential for growth in God.

Indeed, it is precisely because of my believe that God is the Ground of Being and in theosis that I believe the tormented in hell are actually the ones who are absorbed into their own nothingness (a near-annihilationism, but not quite), whereas the people of God continue growing dynamically forever within the divine infinity.

I still, like Jung, am disturbed by the idea of anything being permanently divided from its creator. It would seem to me to be an eternal imperfection/imbalance holding what would be perfect in thrall to what might have been. How can something out of balance be eternal? The farther the redeemed aspects of creation speed away from the thing that has been left behind, the greater the tension between the two, the more pronounced the need for true reconciliation.

One of my favorite teachings of Christ is from Matt. 25, where he describes the coming of the Son of Man. On that day all of mankind is divided according to who has fed and clothed and sheltered Him. Yet those who have done so, did not realize at the time for whom they were symbolically performing these charities. They had simply led their lives going about the business of feeding people because they were hungry and clothing them because they were naked and sheltering them because they were exposed to the elements.

The story never seems to me to have the right ending, or maybe to end too soon. Such people as this would not go complaisantly to their reward while those who did not do these things were consigned to punishment. I think they would rush back across that divide in the moment they understood what was happening and throw themselves on the necks of the others and refuse to move from their sides until everyone could cross.

Everyone or no one. Cross over whole or not at all.

But I'm an infidel and there are probably many things I should believe that I do not.

That's a packed statement. What are the corrupted aspects of his spoken will?

Packed with good things??

In the Genesis story, the creator speaks his creation into existence. His will is made manifest in matter and energy, water, light and stone, flesh and blood. Yet from the moment of the Fall, it moves away from its original goodness until, as Paul put it in Romans, all of creation groans and suffers.

One might say that creation is, finally, supersaturated with consequences.

If the Lake of Fire is indeed God, we find the creator in the end reabsorbing what was once his pure perfect, fluid will to create, but is now something quite different.

That would seem to me to be a Revelation of an Divine magnitude.

 

[Tavita]

On my drive home today I posed myself the question as to what it might mean to say one had reached a "satisfactory level" of sanctification. The first thought that came to my mind was a supersaturated mixture that suddenly crystallizes -- becomes something of an entirely different nature.



I still, like Jung, am disturbed by the idea of anything being permanently divided from its creator. It would seem to me to be an eternal imperfection/imbalance holding what would be perfect in thrall to what might have been. How can something out of balance be eternal? The farther the redeemed aspects of creation speed away from the thing that has been left behind, the greater the tension between the two, the more pronounced the need for true reconciliation.

One of my favorite teachings of Christ is from Matt. 25, where he describes the coming of the Son of Man. On that day all of mankind is divided according to who has fed and clothed and sheltered Him. Yet those who have done so, did not realize at the time for whom they were symbolically performing these charities. They had simply led their lives going about the business of feeding people because they were hungry and clothing them because they were naked and sheltering them because they were exposed to the elements.

The story never seems to me to have the right ending, or maybe to end too soon. Such people as this would not go complaisantly to their reward while those who did not do these things were consigned to punishment. I think they would rush back across that divide in the moment they understood what was happening and throw themselves on the necks of the others and refuse to move from their sides until everyone could cross.

Everyone or no one. Cross over whole or not at all.

But I'm an infidel and there are probably many things I should believe that I do not.



Packed with good things??

In the Genesis story, the creator speaks his creation into existence. His will is made manifest in matter and energy, water, light and stone, flesh and blood. Yet from the moment of the Fall, it moves away from its original goodness until, as Paul put it in Romans, all of creation groans and suffers.

One might say that creation is, finally, supersaturated with consequences.

If the Lake of Fire is indeed God, we find the creator in the end reabsorbing what was once his pure perfect, fluid will to create, but is now something quite different.

That would seem to me to be a Revelation of an Divine magnitude.

Excellent thoughts, Glass*Soul.

 

[Glass*Soul]

How can sin be in the presence of holiness?

What is holiness. What would it mean for sin to be in its presence and why can that not be?

If a human being who is covered in the blood can stand in the presence of holiness, what happens to the inner aspects of the person -- the aspects that needed to be covered?