The KJVO myth...

myst33 said:

I see. You take the figures of speech literally. A common mistake while reading the Bible.

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You don't see anything and that's the problem. You're arguing about things you know nothing about.

Bob_1000 said:

You don't see anything and that's the problem. You're arguing about things you know nothing about.

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I wonder how you automatically suppose that I know nothing about it?

myst33 said:

You automatically put yourself as the target of Jesus' words, even though He spoke to the people around Him.

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Where does the Bible teach that Christ’s words have been abrogated?
Just because Jesus spoke His words during His ministry to the Jews does not mean they do not apply to us today. Yes, I know some words don’t apply like Jesus telling a man to reconcile with his brother before offering animal sacrifices to a priest. But there is no indication in Scripture that Jesus’ words during His earthly ministry do not apply to us. Jesus said to the apostles to go out to all nations and to teach them everything He commanded them. Paul even basically said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

In fact, Jesus and Paul taught the same thing.

1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.


#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.


#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.


#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.


#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.


#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.


#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).


Side Note:
Please keep in mind that I do believe that we are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace without works through faith in Jesus Christ. We are ultimately saved by God’s mercy and what He did for us with His death, burial, and resurrection.

myst33 said:

I wonder how you automatically suppose that I know nothing about it?

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The things coming out of your mouth.

Bible Highlighter said:

Where does the Bible teach that Christ’s words have been abrogated?
Just because Jesus spoke His words during His ministry to the Jews does not mean they do not apply to us today. Yes, I know some words don’t apply like Jesus telling a man to reconcile with his brother before offering sacrifices to a priest. Paul even basically said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

Jesus and Paul taught the same thing.

1. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you can deny God by one's works.

For Jesus said,
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:23).

Jesus said,
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

Paul said,
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).​

#2. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say you need to drink of (walk in) the Spirit as a part of everlasting life.

Jesus said,
"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:14).

Jesus said,
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." (John 7:38).

John said this of Jesus's words,
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:39).

Paul said,
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Paul said,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

Paul said,
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).​

#3. Both Jesus and Paul say that the judgment involves those being condemned or punished in the afterlife for doing evil vs. doing good leading to glory or life as a part of God's kingdom.

Jesus said,
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Paul said,
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Paul said,
19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).​

#4. Both Jesus and Paul taught that we have to continue to abide in the good works of the Lord or we will be cut off and or burned in the fire.

Jesus said,
4 "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:4-6).

Paul said,
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).​

#5. Both Jesus and Paul essentially say that the fear of the Lord is a part of salvation.

Jesus said,
"Fear not them who can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him (The Lord, i.e. Jesus) who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬).

Paul said,
"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).​

#6. Both Jesus and Paul taught that laboring for the right kind of food relates to everlasting life.

Jesus says,
"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you..." (John 6:29).

Jesus says,
"My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34).

Paul said,
“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).​

#7. Both Jesus and Paul spoke of a time in the last days of where false prophets shall arise who are faithless and who do not love (i.e. they will have a form of godliness).

Jesus said,
"Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8).

Jesus said,
"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." (Matthew 24:12).

Jesus said,
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:11).

Paul said,
1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was."
(2 Timothy 3:1-9).

​

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We must be careful while reading the Bible, because not everything is meant to be generally applied to any individual in any age and on any place.

The ministry of Jesus was very specific geographically (Israel) and very specific regarding timing (right before the kingdom of God has come).

Bob_1000 said:

The things coming out of your mouth.

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Nice, so you actually can use the figures of speech! So you understand the concept. You just do not want to find it in the Bible, because of some reason.

myst33 said:

We must be careful while reading the Bible, because not everything is meant to be generally applied to any individual in any age and on any place.

The ministry of Jesus was very specific geographically (Israel) and very specific regarding timing (right before the kingdom of God has come).

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You can say that, but again, you need to have Scripture to back up these kind of statements. Until you do, you just have your own opinion that you are basing your faith upon and not the Word of God saying so.

myst33 said:

We must be careful while reading the Bible, because not everything is meant to be generally applied to any individual in any age and on any place.

The ministry of Jesus was very specific geographically (Israel) and very specific regarding timing (right before the kingdom of God has come).

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For example: I lean more towards Partial Cessationism, but I have actual verses to back up my belief on this and it is not just my own opinion.

Check out this CF thread to learn more.

Cessationism: Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.

Bible Highlighter said:

You can say that, but again, you need to have Scripture to back up these kind of statements. Until you do, you just have your own opinion that you are basing your faith upon and not the Word of God saying so.

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I think its a common knowledge that Jesus was preaching to Jews in Israel in around 30 AD, then the apostle Paul to nations in the Roman empire in around 50-60 AD. Thats the general context of everything you read in your New Testament.

When you say something is said to you today, its you who must prove it, because its an extraordinary claim, regarding the general context.

myst33 said:

We must be careful while reading the Bible, because not everything is meant to be generally applied to any individual in any age and on any place.

The ministry of Jesus was very specific geographically (Israel) and very specific regarding timing (right before the kingdom of God has come).

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Did Jesus truly intend for the apostles to make disciples of all nations for just the Jews only?
I don’t think that is the case seeing the situation we encounter with Peter and Cornelius.
If things are as you say, then God would only be preaching to the Jews in every nation only and tell them not to go into the way of the Gentiles (even after the cross). But this is not what we read, though.

Bible Highlighter said:

Did Jesus truly intend for the apostles to make disciples of all nations for just the Jews only?
I don’t think that is the case seeing the situation we encounter with Peter and Cornelius.
If things are as you say, then God would only be preaching to the Jews in every nation only and tell them not to go into the way of the Gentiles (even after the cross). But this is not what we read, though.

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Jesus was sent to Jews, only. Paul was sent to other nations.

And the context of both of them is the 1st century.

myst33 said:

I think its a common knowledge that Jesus was preaching to Jews in Israel in around 30 AD, then the apostle Paul in around 50-60 AD. Thats the general context of everything you read in your New Testament.

When you say something is said to you today, its you who must prove it, because its an extraordinary claim, regarding the general context.

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Again, just the great commission by Jesus and the situation with Cornelius is all the proof we need. Also, at the Jerusalem council (Acts of the Apostles 15), we learn that the Jewish Christians told the Gentile Christians that they did not have to be circumcised or keep the Law of Moses (i.e. the 613 as a whole or package deal). This does not mean that Gentile Christians were without any kinds of Laws to God because they were under the Law of Christ. For Paul says,

“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.” (1 Corinthians 9:21).

myst33 said:

Jesus was sent to Jews, only. Paul was sent to other nations.

And the context of both of them is the 1st century.

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No. Before the cross, Jesus was only sent out to the Jews. But after He was risen, this changed. Jesus said to the disciples: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19).

Apparently, Peter and the others did not understand the words of Jesus on this point of ALL Nations (meaning all people) because Peter was told to go to a Gentile’s house (a man named Cornelius). This was not many years later, but it was shortly after the birth of the church.

myst33 said:

Jesus was sent to Jews, only. Paul was sent to other nations.

And the context of both of them is the 1st century.

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Also, Jesus primarily taught New Covenant, and not Old Covenant during His Earthly ministry. Jesus was making changes to the Old Law in preparation to the change of the New Covenant that went officially into effect with His death:

Biblical proof?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

Bible Highlighter said:

No. Before the cross, Jesus was only sent out to the Jews. But after He was risen, this changed. Jesus said to the disciples: “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” (Matthew 28:19).

Apparently, Peter and the others did not understand the words of Jesus on this point of ALL Nations (meaning all people) because Peter was told to go to a Gentile’s house (a man named Cornelius). This was not many years later, but it was shortly after the birth of the church.

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I think you miss the difference between being really going out to nations like Paul did and between going to one Roman centurion like Peter did.

Bible Highlighter said:

Also, Jesus primarily taught New Covenant, and not Old Covenant during His Earthly ministry.

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This information does not seem to be related to anything in this thread.

myst33 said:

This information does not seem to be related to anything in this thread.

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We agree on something.

myst33 said:

I think you miss the difference between being really going out to nations like Paul did and between going to one Roman centurion like Peter did.

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Peter was told to by God to go Cornelius’ house. Then at a council later, Peter said how God has now accepted the Gentiles, too.

“Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.” (Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18).

So the Jewish council did not take it as an isolated incident. They said that God has also granted an opportunity for repentance unto life involving the Gentiles.