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Featured The KJVO myth...

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by robycop3, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    thankyou sir for entering this debate, I will see if I can help out here. Just stay calm, and be open minded that is all I ask. If it gets heated in the debate I typically have to bow out. So what you are saying here I think....is that there are other verses that mention the trinity. And you are correct. However there are no verses that mention all three members of the trinity, and "prove" it. For example there is a verse in genesis that says "let us make man in our image." That can be a proof of the trinity, but lets just play the devils advocate for example, most jewish scholars look at elohim, not as a plurality but as a majestic term for God. For instance when a king or queen would say "let us decend upon the people." For example. I don't know about that verse, it very well could be a proof of the trinity, but it could be referring to Just God the father and God the son. It may not even mention the Holy Spirit, and there are no other verses that mention all three members of the Trinity being one, other than that example. But 1 John 5:7-9 does prove the trinity in one verse. It's the only one that does that.
     
  2. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    You mention 1 John 5:7-9 in all the modern translations, but they merely say that there are three in agreement....."the water, the water and the blood." There is no mention of the trinity in those verses in the modern translations, or in the greek text behind those translations. But it is in the majority of texts, in fact it is in every text OTHER THAN codex vaticanus and codex sinaiticus. And I have made a very good case for those two being forged. Mainly the fact that photographs of the sinaiticus reveal pages that are right after one another that are 25% darker, revealing they were pieced together with different aged blank pages, and the writing was put on an previously aged blank manuscript. At least that is my theory about it. There is no other explanation for why pages would be darker or lighter right on the next page, and manuscripts typically age uniform, and the outer edges age slightly more than the inner edges, and that is not the case either, which means it's a new manuscript that has been aged, either by lemon juice other other way to make it look older. But anyway, that is sort of on a previous topic, but it was never refuted, so I wanted you to know that you can address any of these things as they are all still valid in this thread and have not been refuted, I can post the links to the photographs if you want.
     
  3. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Here are eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, that are unique. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, etc., with respect to believers. For example, #2, believers are saved by, the kindness and love of God our Saviour, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy, Ghost, shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three.
    (1.) 2 Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
    (2.) Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    (3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
    (4.) 1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14]Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    (5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God,.
    (6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
    39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,.
    (7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.
    (8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
    13 Now the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost,.
    (9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,
    (10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
    14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.
    (11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
    4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
    5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
    6 There are different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.
    2 Corinthians 13:14, Titus 3:4, Jude 1:20-21, 1 Peter 1:2, Luke 1:35, Acts of the apostles 2:38-39, Romans 15:16, Romans 15:12-13, Hebrews 9:14, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 1 Corinthians 12:3-6, Matthew 1:18-23-28, Matthew 3:9-11, Matthew 3:16-17, Matthew 4:1-3, Matthew 10:19-23, Matthew 12:28, Matthew 28:19, Mark 12:35, Luke 1:15-17, Luke 1:30-35, Luke 1:67-69, Luke 2:25-32, Luke 4:12-14, Luke 10:21, Luke 12:8-10, John 1:32-34, John 3:31-35, John 14:15-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-11, John 16:13-15, John 20:16, Acts of the apostles 1:4-5, Acts of the apostles 1:7-8, Acts of the apostles 2:32-33, Acts of the apostles 2:38, Acts of the apostles 4:8-10, Acts of the apostles 4:24, Acts of the apostles 4:29-31, Acts of the apostles 5:30-32, Acts of the apostles 7:51-56, Acts of the apostles 8:14-17, Acts of the apostles 9:15-20, Acts of the apostles 10:38, Acts of the apostles 11:15-17, Acts of the apostles 11:23-24, Acts of the apostles 15:7-10, Acts of the apostles 16:6-10, Acts of the apostles 20:22-24, Acts of the apostles 28:23, Romans 1:1, Romans 5:1-5, Romans 8:9-11, Romans 8:13-17, Romans 8:26-29, Romans 14:15-18, Romans 15:12-13, Romans 15:16, Romans 15:16, Romans 15:18-19, Romans 15:30, 1 Corinthians 2:8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 1 Corinthians 12:3 ff, 2 Corinthians 1:20, 2 Corinthians 3:3, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Galatians 3:1 ff, Galatians 4:4, Ephesians 2:17-18; Ephesians 3:14, Ephesians 4:4, Ephesians 4:30, Ephesians 5:18, Philippians 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Timothy 3:15, Titus 3:4, Hebrews 2:3, Hebrews 6:3, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:29, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 4:14, 1 John 3:21, 1 John 4:13, 1 John 5:6, Jude 1:20-21, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 22:17-18



     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  4. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    Thanks I love verses like that. I use those as circumstantial evidence. Because it could be that the Holy Spirit was just a force of God, or that Christ was completely separate from God. Not proving the three were.one, but proving three separate parts of God. That technically is not the trinity. So again only one verse in the Bible says "the three were one." And that verse is sadly removed from modern translations. Don't get me wrong one can prove the doctrine if the trinity but only through chain reference.
     
  5. QvQ

    QvQ Member

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    Language matters. A modern version of Shakespeare is "a rose by any other name" versus "names don't matter" Two versions. Words have power and the poetry of the KJV is magnificent. Poetry is the best possible words in the best possible order and for me, that is the excellence of the KJV
     
  6. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    The KJV was no-more-inspired than any other valid translation in any other language. All are by God's will.

    There's not a lotta money to be made in making/publishing a Bible translation. Thus, I believe God causes some translators & publishers to make them anyway.

    While the KJV has been the most-printed book in history in any language, the British govt. had much to do with that by banning the printing or sale of any other English version within its realm for awhile.

    But nowhere in Scripture does God forbid the making of translations of His word, nor does He show favoritism to any particular one. What He DOES do is forbid any subtraction from, or additions to, His word.
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    Shakespeare died in 1616, thus freezing his works in time.(I don't consider any Shakespeare work in modern language as authentic.) But GOD is alive & in charge, & His word is alive through His power. God is the Maker & master of all languages, and all language changes are by His will and/or permission. Thus, "robot", a Czech word meaning a type of servant, came into English as a mechanical "man" with no will of its own. ("Robot" came from I, robot, the 1939 story of a thinking mechanical man, by Eando Binder; that title was used by Isaac Asimov for his collection of short stories about mechanical people.)

    There have been many non-English terms used in English writings, but it's GOD who chooses which ones become part of English such as "robot" has.
     
  8. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is clearly taught in the story of Jesus' baptism, in older & newer Bible versions.
     
  9. Non-profit Prophet

    Non-profit Prophet Member

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    That would disqualify KJV, as it can easily be proven that numerous portions of text were altered from mss that pre-dated it by 1,800 years. The KJV translators used numerous altered and mistranslated texts to establish its format. For example, the oldest Hebrew text available at that time was the altered Masoretic text, circa 1000 AD. Since then, mss dated circa 200 BC have been discovered and prove the KJV, (as well as 95% of translations), are based on altered texts.

    The key to possessing an authentic translation is to have one that is solely based on the oldest mss.
     
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    NO known ancient Scriptural mss. has the words "and shalt be" in Rev. 16:5.
     
  11. Non-profit Prophet

    Non-profit Prophet Member

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    The older manuscripts say ὅσιος.

    Shalt has only been around since c. 1100 AD.

    What is the Greek word that “and shalt be” translated from?
     
  12. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    None that I know of. That's why I said those words were a MAN-MADE ADDITION to God's word in the KJV.
     
  13. Non-profit Prophet

    Non-profit Prophet Member

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    Oh, I’m sorry... I got you mixed up with someone who advocated the KJV. But you are absolutely correct! The KJV inserts words and verses that have no relationship to the older texts.

    The verse you offered, Revelation 16:5 is a perfect example of poor scholarship and dishonest translation. The actual word means “holy.” I have a bible that was translated correctly... uses the word sacred (one) and does not say “shalt be” or any other form of that word.


     
  14. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    Mixup? Well, we're all human & therefore imperfect. No prob !

    This is but one of the many KJV goofs & booboos. There's the famous "Easter" goof in Acts 12:4, the much-abused "Thou shalt not KILL" in Ex. 20:13 (Anyone not believing this is a booboo, please look up the true meaning of the Hebrew word "ratsach", there rendered "kill".) & the love of money is THE root of ALL evil" in 1 Tim. 6:10. And again, this is a very-short list of goofs, booboos, & poor translations.

    However, the KJV is still an excellent translation, & one may be led to Jesus through its words. But it's neither perfect, nor is it the "be-all, end-all" English translation.

    Just remember, Sportzz fanzz, that the KJVO myth is entirely MAN-MADE, without one quark of Scriptural support, and should be completely dismissed & ignored. If one wishes to use only the KJV (or any other one version alone) fine, but we must remember that one's pet version is NOT the only valid one out there ! Do NOT be deceived by the junk of Gail Riplinger, Dr. Peter Ruckman, Dr. D. A. Waite, Melton, Reagan, Faust, Steve Anderson, Will Kinney, or any other one of those tale-tellers.
     
  15. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    s you probably know, modern versions leave much out and they don't all leave the same texts out. Some leave whole verses out.
     
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Newbie

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    Are you sure the KJV & a few other older versions didn't ADD material, such as in the previously-mentioned Rev. 16:5 ?
     
  17. Oseas

    Oseas Well-Known Member

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    The main testimony about the person of the Holy Spirit is the testimony of JESUS. JESUS testified about the person of the Holy Spirit, saying: John 16:v.7-14:

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM -the person of the Holy Spirit- unto you.

    8 And when HE - the person of the holy Spirit- is come, he will reprove the WORLD OF SIN, and of righteousness, and of JUDGMENT;

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

    13 Howbeit when HE-the person of the Holy Spirit-, the Spirit of Truth, is come, HE-the person of the Holy Spirit- will GUIDE you into all TRUTH: for HE-the person of the Holy Spirit- shall NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF(AS i AM SPEAKING HERE NOW IN THIS POST); but whatsoever HE shall HEAR, that shall he SPEAK(AS i AM SPEAKING HERE NOW IN THIS POST): and HE -the person of the Holy Spirit- will shew you things to come.

    14 HE-the person of the Holy Spirit-shall glorify me-JESUS-: for HE-the person of the Holy Spirit-shall RECEIVE OF MINE(AS i AM SPEAKING HERE NOW IN THIS POST), and shall shew it unto you.

    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that HE-the person of the Holy Spirit- shall TAKE OF MINE(AS i AM SPEAKING HERE NOW IN THIS POST), and shall shew it unto you.

    1John 5:v.7 - 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father(God the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS-the Word is God), and the Holy Spirit (who is not a Ghost as is written in English language erroneously, but a Person): and these three are One. -This has not to do with the expression trinity, but Triuno-The Word is God, the Word is from everlasting to everlasting -
     
  18. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    That’s actually fallacious, because the age of a manuscript does not confer legitimacy. For example, Eusebius of Caesarea was asked to produce bibles for the churches in Constantinople; he was a semi-Arian who signed the acts of the Council of Nicea under protest, and as the NT canon had not yet been finalized, he outlined in his Ecclesiastical History a canon which is slightly different from what we presently use. Conversely, Alexandria, a bastion of Orthodoxy, was asked to supply Bibles as well, and those which were completed before Pope* Athanasius was illegally exiled by force against the will of the Egyptian people, by Arian soldiers of Emperor Constantius, who had been converted to Arianism by Eusebius of Nicomedia, and replaced by a despotic Arian bishop, would be highly reliable, for it was Athanasius who defined the New Testament canon in one of his encyclicals later in life. While those books produced by the Arian bishops who ruled illegally during his numerous exiles to places as far away from Egypt as Trier in Germant would potentially be less reliable.

    I think a reverse argument can be made, that ancient surviving manuscripts that deviate from the textus receptus might be less reliable, because these were manuscript traditions that the early Church suppressed because of influence from Arians or other heretics, or because they contained errors or textual defects, and as a result, these books were set aside and not used, whereas the legitimate manuscripts were worn out from continual use and are thus lost.**

    * The bishop of Alexandria has since the second century been called Papem or Pope; today, there are two Popes of Alexandria, and in an amusing coincidence they have the same name: His Beatitude Pope Theodore II of Alexandria (Greek Orthodox) and His Holiness Pope Tawadros (Theodore) II of Alexandria (Coptic Orthodox). They are also good friends due to the ecumenical reconciliation of the Coptic Orthodox Christians with the Eastern Orthodox, particularly the small surviving community of Alexandrian Greeks, who the Copts help to protect. The Archbishop of Rome was formally styled Papem or Pope in the sixth century, and aside from a ridiculous incident involving Archbishop Victor in the second century attempting to impose the Western dating of Easter on the Eastern churches (which ended with Victor being told off by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons), Papal Supremacy was not claimed until much later.

    ** It is a custom in the ancient churches to burn flammable holy objects which have become worn out or require disposal, for example, the sponges and purificators that Orthodox, Catholic, and high church Anglican and Lutheran pastors use to clean the chalice before and after Holy Communion, sponges which are consecrated because they are used to clean a consecrated instrument. As another example, the chrism used in the confirmation of Eastern Orthodox Christians contains the ashes of worn out icons, which are reverently burned. It is conceivable that in the past, worn out books of scripture were reverently burned and used in this way. It is also interesting to note that the most ancient surviving liturgical scriptural texts (Gospel Books, usually) tend to agree with the textus receptus/Majority Text/Byzantine text type. For example, the oldest surviving Coptic Gospel Books, the oldest surviving Syriac Peshittas, the oldest surviving Ge’ez Bibles from Ethiopia, the oldest surviving Vulgate Gospel Books from the Benedictine monasteries of the 7th-8th centuries, and so on, are all closer to the Textus Receptus than to the Minority Text one finds in the manuscripts you refer to (I assume you are talking about the so called “Alexandrian Text Type”, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus).

    The main departure of the KJV and other Anglican Bibles from most editions of the Vulgate was the use of a Psalter translated from the Masoretic text, which consequently had different versification from the Septuagint Psalter. That said, Jerome himself, not content with the Septuagint Psalter he translated at the urging of the Roman archbishop, also translated the Psalter from the pre-Masoretic Hebrew text.
     
  19. The Liturgist

    The Liturgist Traditional Liturgical Christian

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    This is true of some modern translations. Not all, but certainly, translations like the NIV which are predicated on the idea the “Minority Text” is more reliable than the Textus Receptus. The NKJV on the other hand does not have that problem, although personally I find it lacking in literary style compared to the original.

    By the way, one thing a lot of people who are not Anglicans do not realize is the KJV, strictly speaking, includes the Deuterocanonical Books, or Apocrypha, as the Church of England reads from these books at Mattins and Evensong. So these books should not be thought of as the peculiar domain of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles. Books like Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Tobit I find to be inspiring; Wisdom chapter 2 is one of the clearest prophecies of the passion of our Lord in Scripture. So this is something I really love about the KJV.

    I am not an adherent or promoter of KJV-onlyism.
     
  20. Non-profit Prophet

    Non-profit Prophet Member

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    Pre-Masoretic Hebrew text?! How old is that text? When/where was it found? The oldest known text was not even available to KJV translators, so how could KJV be superior to that? To say that the older texts were less reliable than a 17th century translation known by its own translators to be “just another translation” is tantamount to blasphemy against the Word of God.

    I read scripture that was penned by Hebrew scribes, not by scholars commissioned by an English king during the Renaissance.
     
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