The Jews and Psalm 22 question

[peepnklown]

I've been awaiting an answer to your question as well.

I knew the discussion would go on for a while when talking about the DSS, but I knew once I got down to the basics on which Hebrew term meant ‘pierced’ the discussion would be dropped.
I must be a prophet.

 

[peepnklown]

If the author of Psalm 22 wanted the passage to mean ‘pierce,’ he had quite a few excellent Hebrew terms that actually mean ‘pierce’ or ‘to stab through’ or ‘to puncture.’
DAQAR
NAQAV
RATSA

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If the author of Psalm 22 wanted the passage to mean ‘pierce,’ he had quite a few excellent Hebrew terms that actually mean ‘pierce’ or ‘to stab through’ or ‘to puncture.’
DAQAR
NAQAV
RATSA

I tend to agree. Hopefully someone will come up with the right one but in either case, it won't change the book of Revelation much, regardless.

Jeremiah 4:13 "Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses [Revelation 19] are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!"

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses:

Reve 1:7 Behold! He is coming with the clouds and shall be seeing him every eye even who any him they prick/ex-ekenthsan <1574>, and shall be be wailing over him all the Tribes of the Land. Yea Amen.

After the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, the Sadducees disappear - no temple meant no sacrifices, no place therefore for a priestly class; total national humiliation meant no place for a ruling class skilled in managing foreign rulers. Pharisees alone have shaped the religious life. Judaism, as a political state was ruined, the militant Zealots were decimated; the seething problems which had obsessed Palestine while Jesus lived were history. Jerusalem was the capital of the Jewish world. The catastrophic event of its present, past, or future destruction would be a central, decisive world event-an extraordinary intervention of God signaling the beginning of the last days of the world. Among Christians it would have prompted an intense expectation of the imminent return of Jesus in glory.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would like to ask the jews if this is indeed the correct translation of Pslam 22 and what MSS they use to arrive at it. Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Psalm 22:That dogs surround me, congregation of ones being evil, they encompassed me as lion hands of me and feet of me.

Zephaniah 3:3 Her princes in her midst [are] roaring LIONS; [ 0738 'ariy]Her judges [are] evening wolves That leave not a bone till morning. 4 Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people;Her priests have polluted the sanctuary

There are 2 different greek words used for "pierce" in the NT.

(Young) John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; 3572 nusso

(NKJV) Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye [#3788] will see [#3700] Him, even they who pierced [#1574] Him. And all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses:

(NKJV) John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced [#1574]."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump for more discussions. Peace and Shalom.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump.................There are 2 different greek words used for "pierce" in the NT.

(Young) John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; 3572 nusso (NKJV)

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye [#3788] will see [#3700] Him, even they who pierced [#1574] Him. And all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. [Jeremiah 4:13]

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses

John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced [#1574]."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If the author of Psalm 22 wanted the passage to mean ‘pierce,’ he had quite a few excellent Hebrew terms that actually mean ‘pierce’ or ‘to stab through’ or ‘to puncture.’
DAQAR
NAQAV
RATSA

Thanks.

Any other views from Hebrew scholars on Psalm 22?

 

[plmarquette]

Prophetic of the crucifixion of Jesus
... dogs ... gentiles , uncircumcised ... romans
... pierced ... death blow
... pierced ... book of zecharaiah , they will look upon who they have pierced , will ask him where he recieved the wounds in his hands ... his own people

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would like to ask the jews if this is indeed the correct translation of Pslam 22 and what MSS they use to arrive at it. Thanks.

http://www.scripture4all.org/


Quote:
Psalm 22:That dogs surround me, congregation of ones being evil, they encompassed me as lion hands of me and feet of me.

Prophetic of the crucifixion of Jesus
... dogs ... gentiles , uncircumcised ... romans
... pierced ... death blow
... pierced ... book of zecharaiah , they will look upon who they have pierced , will ask him where he recieved the wounds in his hands ... his own people

Thanks. What is your translation of that verse as I want to compare it to the way the Jews do. And you refer to gentile dogs. Could that not also refer to "uncircumcized in heart" believers?

Also, what does the word "pierced" mean in revelation in a way that the Jews would understand it. Thanks.

(Young) John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; 3572 nusso (NKJV)

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye [#3788] will see [#3700] Him, even they who pierced [#1574] Him. And all the tribes of the land will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. [Jeremiah 4:13]

ekkenteo (Strong's 1574) occurs 2 times in 2 verses

John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "They shall look on Him whom they pierced [#1574]."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bump for more discussion,,,,,,,,

 

[jlujan69]

Will the real Masoretic-ben Asher or ben Chayyim- please stand up?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

bump.................

 

[stone]

If the author of Psalm 22 wanted the passage to mean &#8216;pierce,&#8217; he had quite a few excellent Hebrew terms that actually mean &#8216;pierce&#8217; or &#8216;to stab through&#8217; or &#8216;to puncture.&#8217;
DAQAR
NAQAV
RATSA

well... this was written by David right? so i would say that if this is prophetic that he may have written it and some of these others from his perspective at the time, given from a vision or a dream, which are not always very clear. He still hits the mark. whatever word you choose.

 

[Chabadnik]

Shalom Stone,

well... this was written by David right? so i would say that if this is prophetic that he may have written it and some of these others from his perspective at the time, given from a vision or a dream, which are not always very clear. He still hits the mark. whatever word you choose.

The problem with this, is that it doesn't fall into any known form of Jewish exegesis at all. There are methods to Jewish prophcey and understanding them, the Christian understanding of Pslam 22 doesn't fit into that method at all.

Compareing Jewish and Christian exegesis is apples and oranges, but when I study the psalm under my critical eye, and apply occam's razor to the Hebrew grammar for implied intent, I still find the Christian position shallow in that respect as well.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Shalom Stone,



The problem with this, is that it doesn't fall into any known form of Jewish exegesis at all. There are methods to Jewish prophcey and understanding them, the Christian understanding of Pslam 22 doesn't fit into that method at all.

Compareing Jewish and Christian exegesis is apples and oranges, but when I study the psalm under my critical eye, and apply occam's razor to the Hebrew grammar for implied intent, I still find the Christian position shallow in that respect as well.

Shalom Shab. I would like the most accurate word for word rendering of this verse regardless of whether it appeals to the Jewish, CHRIST-ian or even Muslims view. Here is what I come up with and one thing I want to ask is the hebrew word for "lions" in it or not. Thanks.

(Young) Psalms 22:16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed/turned-on me, lions/0738 'ariy digged/03738 karahat my hands and my feet..

 

[torahgrandma]

[/color]
I have said this before&#8230;Psalms 22 doesn&#8217;t have the word &#8216;pierced&#8217; in the text&#8230;so I don&#8217;t see how you are going to &#8216;harmonize&#8217; your text.

Some of the MT mss have "lion" (ka'ari), and some have "dug" (ka&#770;ra&#770;h) which is rendered as pierced.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Chabadnik
Shalom Stone,

The problem with this, is that it doesn't fall into any known form of Jewish exegesis at all. There are methods to Jewish prophcey and understanding them, the Christian understanding of Pslam 22 doesn't fit into that method at all.

Compareing Jewish and Christian exegesis is apples and oranges, but when I study the psalm under my critical eye, and apply occam's razor to the Hebrew grammar for implied intent, I still find the Christian position shallow in that respect as well.

Some of the MT mss have "lion" (ka'ari), and some have "dug" (ka&#770;ra&#770;h) which is rendered as pierced.

Hmm. So which one do you believe would be the correct rendering? Shalom.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Any more Jews here like to comment on this thread?
That word used for "pierce" in Reve 1:7 is not the same as the word used for the roman soldier stabbing Jesus on the Cross.


Reve 1:7 Behold! He is coming with the clouds, and shall be seeing Him every eye, even who any Him they "pierce". And shall be bewailing over Him all the tribes of the Land. Yea Amen. [Jeremiah 4:13]