The "Jesus" we accept, MUST be "PREACHED".

[Dartman]

Given theJews tendancy to latch on to the nearest false God, teaching them that God was a trinity would have sent them crazy.
Most of the OT is God hammering home the fact that there is only One God.
The problem is they were a single track thought by th time Jesus was there and teaching that he was also God.

Jesus made it clear, he and the other Jews "know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews". John 4:22

 

[Dartman]

Jesus claimed to be God in the NT.

Never.
Jesus stated plainly, he is the "son of God".
He even corrected the Jews when they misinterpreted his statement;

John 10:33-38 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[Faith Alone 1 Cor 15:1-4]

How is trinity not in OT ? In Genesis word Elohim is plural in hebrew , everything ending with im in OT is plural like cherub(single ) cherubim ( plural).
God could choose his name here "I Am " but he choose Elohim just to show you that it's plural from the beginning .

Anyways , had teacher who believed whole bible suggest trinity , it's 66 books - 22 letters in hebrew times 3 . From Alpha to Omega times 3 .

 

[Dartman]

How is trinity not in OT? In Genesis word Elohim is plural in hebrew , everything ending with im in OT is plural like cherub(single ) cherubim ( plural).
God could choose his name here "I Am " but he choose Elohim just to show you that it's plural from the beginning.

Plural in Hebrew doesn't always mean multiple. It also indicates majesty. So, attempting to FORCE trinitarian theories onto the OT, which is RIGIDLY monotheistic, merely because of this flimsy "evidence", is NOT persuasive!!
The same thing is true regarding the NT. The NT consistently references the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob", "the God of our Fathers", "the God of Israel", "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ". Any attempt to ignore the identity of the New Testament God being clearly defined by God in the Old Testament, is a deliberate attempt to twist Scripture.

Anyways , had teacher who believed whole bible suggest trinity , it's 66 books - 22 letters in hebrew times 3 . From Alpha to Omega times 3 .

Do you have ANY idea how silly, and desperate this kind of "evidence" appears, when it goes against the clear, and simple statements of Scripture??

 

[cloudyday2]

@Dartman , why does it matter to you if some teacher is recorded in the Bible explaining the Trinity? Do you think that the earliest Christians had a significantly different Christology than modern Christians?

I have some opinions on this issue, but I want to understand your beliefs. We might be so far apart in our beliefs that my opinions would not be useful to you.

 

[Dartman]

@Dartman , why does it matter to you if some teacher is recorded in the Bible explaining the Trinity? Do you think that the earliest Christians had a significantly different Christology than modern Christians?

Since the New Testament records the "earliest Christians", and the teachings recorded in the New Testament NEVER ..... EVER ..... preach, teach, explain or state ... ANY of the tenets unique to 'trinitarian theory' ... You BET I believe their Christology was VASTLY different than 'trinitarian' Christology!
In fact, roughly 50 years AFTER the New Testament books were written, there is a creed, the so called "Apostles Creed", which records a "Christology" very consistent with NT teachings, and my own beliefs;

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

I have some opinions on this issue, but I want to understand your beliefs. We might be so far apart in our beliefs that my opinions would not be useful to you.

You may be right, but I am VERY willing to listen to your opinions.

 

[cloudyday2]

And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried.
He descended into hell. The third day He rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

You agree with the quote above from the Apostle's Creed, but I do not see how that differs from the Trinity beliefs. Maybe you can explain or point me to an earlier post where you explained?

 

[unbelievable1]

That's where manifestation makes more sense because son=The human body essentially and under oneness or a manifestation perspective son would be a title simply representing the human body God operated under.

Or the visible image of the invisible God (made manifest)

Just as scripture states

 

[cloudyday2]

@Dartman , do you believe in Arianism? Here is something I read about the Apostles Creed from Wikipedia:

Its basis appears to be the old Roman Creed known also as the Old Roman Symbol. Because of the early origin of its original form, it does not address some Christological issues defined in the Nicene and other Christian Creeds. It thus says nothing explicitly about the divinity of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. This makes it acceptable to many Arians and Unitarians. Nor does it address many other theological questions which became objects of dispute centuries later.

Apostles' Creed - Wikipedia

 

[unbelievable1]

Did a "good man" reconcile the world back to GOD by being a "good man"?

 

[unbelievable1]

Jesus made it clear, he and the other Jews "know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews". John 4:22

he also said if you knew the gift of god you would have asked me and I would have given you Living Water

What was this Living Water that the Son would give to those who asked Him?

 

[unbelievable1]

How was God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself?

Or was it just a "good man's good spirit" that earned for man salvation?

 

[unbelievable1]

Do all believe John 16:28?

That Jesus came into the world from the father and again was leaving the world and going back to the father

That's a repeated process

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Or the visible image of the invisible God (made manifest)

Just as scripture states

Not sure how that's any different then what I just said. That's literally saying God copied himself or expresses his being in flesh... that's no different then say God manifested in flesh. Image stems from the Greek word that means reflection or likeness scriptures such as Hebrews 1:3 that use image of only support my posistion.

 

[unbelievable1]

Not sure how that's any different then what I just said. That's literally saying God copied himself or expresses his being in flesh... that's no different then say God manifested in flesh. Image stems from the Greek word that means reflection or likeness scriptures such as Hebrews 1:3 that use image of only support my posistion.

Yes and yet you do not believe the triune nature of God making manifest what is invisible (spirit) if not for a visible vessel (body)

And the word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us

How was the word of God made flesh?

Did Christ, the visible image of the invisible God, come speaking by his own spirit?

Or the father's?

And if by his own spirit, then are there two Holy Spirit a poured out upon those who believe?

Christ's life giving/quickening spirit

And the father's?

 

[unbelievable1]

Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. The exact representation of God's being and the full radiance of God's glory

For it pleased God that in Him the fullness of the godhead might dwell

 

[unbelievable1]

And Philip said
Show us The Father and it will suffice

What did Christ say?

 

[amariselle]

How about these verses?

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. - Matthew 3:13-17

 

[unbelievable1]

How about these verses?

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. - Matthew 3:13-17

According to the Spirit, Was He declared the holy son of God before or after He was baptized?

 

[amariselle]

According to the Spirit, Was He declared the holy son of God before or after He was baptized?

Here's what John says about that:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. - John 1:1-18

At Jesus' baptism Who He is (Who He always was and always will be) was revealed. He was not made anything in that moment, He has always been God)