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The issues with Sola Scriptura

Wolf_Says

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Hey thanks man! I am a huge Medieval historian and love it.

Heres my question to you then, Do you believe that the Catholic Church, and it's leadership, is still being led by the Holy Spirit and is operating the way Christ would want it to and how He established it?

Again no judgement I just enjoy ideas and discussions.

Yes I do.

I believe that the devil has constantly been attacking the Church since it was established, and this has lead to some bad popes and bad priests/bishops. However, the Church is still here after all of this, just as Jesus promised that it would be. I believe that the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church, and defends the teachings from becoming corrupted or heretical.

Side note: Medieval history (especially war/battle tactics) has always been my favorite part of history. I could honestly care less about modern history or none war history. I love watching documentaries about battle and war and how generals carried their troops through.
 
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TalwinStark

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Yes I do.

I believe that the devil has constantly been attacking the Church since it was established, and this has lead to some bad popes and bad priests/bishops. However, the Church is still here after all of this, just as Jesus promised that it would be. I believe that the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church, and defends the teachings from becoming corrupted or heretical.

Side note: Medieval history (especially war/battle tactics) has always been my favorite part of history. I could honestly care less about modern history or none war history. I love watching documentaries about battle and war and how generals carried their troops through.


More power to you man. It's good to have faith in your leadership. I will never degrade someone based on their church or denomination. That's not my place nor do I want it. My main thing is as long as you preach Christ crucified then I am kosher. I am more kingdom minded then denominational.

Answer to side note: You and me both, I have always found it fascinating and love everything about. Once gunpowder gets involved I slowly lose interest. Victorian age I tend to taper off and then only find other tid bits of history interesting
 
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DJKWord

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everybody claims to be lead by the Holy Spirit when they read the Bible, and yet there is still 40,000 different denominations all claiming to know the truth and being led by the Holy Spirit, and they differ greatly in their teachings and understandings.

I'm still curious where the presupposition comes from, that denominations all differ because they interpret God's Book differently? I've also shown in two posts why it's more likely that leaders get certain ideas, then look for proof-texts.

Don't mean to be a pain, but that 40,000 figure is kind of an urban legend, as this Catholic blogger points out:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scot...that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations

I've actually heard different numbers, ranging from 25,000 to 40,000.
 
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Albion

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I'm still curious where the presupposition comes from, that denominations all differ because they interpret God's Book differently? I've also shown in two posts why it's more likely that leaders get certain ideas, then look for proof-texts.

Don't mean to be a pain, but that 40,000 figure is kind of an urban legend, as this Catholic blogger points out:

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scot...that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations

I've actually heard different numbers, ranging from 25,000 to 40,000.

These figures are grossly inflated, mainly in two ways: 1) by counting the same church in different countries as separate denominations and 2) by counting many church organizations (sodalities, missionary societies, religious orders of nuns or monks, etc.) as if they were different denominations. While it's Protestants who are usually ridiculed by use of these statistics, it's instructive to note that there are--by this system--over 300 different Roman Catholic denominations! That's not different rites within the RCC or different Catholic Churches, but over 300 different Roman Catholic churches.

And of course there are reasons other than doctrine or practice that account for many splits. Disputes over the choice of leader account for many divisions, for instance, and there's no doctrinal argument or controversy over worship practices involved at all.
 
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Graham Dull

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Luke 4:32
“They were amazed at his teaching, because his words had authority.”

Jesus’ words had authority. That authority came from God, not from the church.

When Jesus spoke, his words had authority. When his words were repeated to others and by others, they carried that authority with them. They had authority because they came from God, and his words were true.

Jesus chose Disciples, he appointed Apostles. They taught as Jesus taught, they wrote down his sayings, his teachings, and the events of his life.

From the very moment John wrote ‘The Revelation of Jesus Christ’ (The Apocalypse), it was true. It didn’t need to wait for a far off church council to make it true. It was true. Jesus Christ himself spoke directly to John; see, for instance, the messages to the seven churches where John records Jesus' words.

Paul, an Apostle appointed by Christ wrote many of the letters in the New Testament. Other members of the early church such as Luke wrote concerning the message of salvation.

People like Paul, Luke, Peter, John, and others wrote their testimony. They testified to the life of Jesus Christ, and the history (both good and bad) of the early church.

'Who' should be counted worthy to write which books is not the biggest issue facing the church. By far the biggest issue is, do we follow what was written?

The early church was shepherded and watched over by the Apostles. It had organization, it was structured. Here below is some of its structure.

A BISHOP -- ONE WIFE
Bishops were appointed. They were not to have more than one wife.
1 Timothy 3:2
“A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife.”

APOSTLES’ WIVES
The Apostles were accompanied on trips by their wives.
1 Corinthians 9:5
“Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas (Peter)?

PETER’S MOTHER-IN-LAW
Jesus healed Peter’s wife’s mother.
Matthew 8:14
“When Jesus came into Peter’s house, he saw Peter’s mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.”

CELIBACY
One could choose to be celibate.
1 Corinthians 7:37
“But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.”

SOME FORBADE MARRIAGE
Paul spoke against those who would forbid another to marry.
1 Timothy 4:3
“They forbid people to marry.”

Do we see? Do we listen? Do we put into practice?

Today as always, we need to recognize the authority of Christ, and the authority given through Paul, Luke, Peter, John, and others; so as not to contradict the teachings of the church. If Jesus words were true then, they are still true today. And likewise, the words of Scripture are still true today.

It didn’t take decades or centuries for the words which Jesus spoke to become authoritative. It didn’t take the decrees of church councils some centuries later to make them authoritative.

Jesus is the Son of God, and therefore he had immediate authority. His authority abides today.

Life from God .com
http://lifefromgod.com/
 
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Thursday

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So then are you saying that in fact God does not endorse His Word?

I'm saying that without the Catholic Church's tradition you wouldn't even know which books are God's word.

Jesus started a Church. The Church gave you his teachings in the form of tradition and the New Testament.
 
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Thursday

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Heres my question to you then, Do you believe that the Catholic Church, and it's leadership, is still being led by the Holy Spirit and is operating the way Christ would want it to and how He established it?

Again no judgement I just enjoy ideas and discussions.

I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer if that's OK.

I'm a convert to Catholicism, and I absolutely believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church. Jesus promised to be with the Church until the end of the world.

That being said, all individuals are sinners, and individuals in the Church do many things that are wrong and go against the will of Jesus. The teaching authority and the saving grace of the Church are not impacted by these acts of individuals, though.
 
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TalwinStark

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I'm saying that without the Catholic Church's tradition you wouldn't even know which books are God's word.

Jesus started a Church. The Church gave you his teachings in the form of tradition and the New Testament.


But without the Holy Spirit (God) the Catholic Church wouldn't have known what to do. They would have messed it up. So in fact it comes back to God does in fact endorse and created the Bible.
 
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TalwinStark

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I know this wasn't to me, but I'd like to answer if that's OK.

I'm a convert to Catholicism, and I absolutely believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church. Jesus promised to be with the Church until the end of the world.

That being said, all individuals are sinners, and individuals in the Church do many things that are wrong and go against the will of Jesus. The teaching authority and the saving grace of the Church are not impacted by these acts of individuals, though.


I agree, however I think we could classify the church as the Body of Christ, or the Kingdom of Believers and not a single denomination.
 
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Thursday

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Luke 4:32
“They were amazed at his teaching, because his words had authority.”

Jesus’ words had authority. That authority came from God, not from the church.

Jesus gave his authority to the Church:

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Matt 16
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
 
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Thursday

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But without the Holy Spirit (God) the Catholic Church wouldn't have known what to do. They would have messed it up. So in fact it comes back to God does in fact endorse and created the Bible.

I agree. But Jesus gave the Church his authority to lead and teach. God works through the body of Christ to protect and proclaim the truth.
 
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Albion

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I'm saying that without the Catholic Church's tradition you wouldn't even know which books are God's word.
There's more that's incorrect than correct in that claim. For one thing, that was the undivided church from which almost all of the later denominations descend, not any particular denomination (such as your own). But moreover, that isn't Tradition anyway. If it were, you'd be telling us what divine revelation was delivered by that action that wasn't available to the church through Scripture. No, you're not saying that. You're saying that it IS Scripture...but that that the church codified it, that's all.
 
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Thursday

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I agree, however I think we could classify the church as the Body of Christ, or the Kingdom of Believers and not a single denomination.


If you do that you are stuck with contradictory teachings. Jesus said he wants us to be one as he and the Father are one. I don't think they disagree about doctrine.

Some examples that make my point.

You can find protestant churches who follow the bible that teach:

Baptism is required for salvation
Baptism is not required for salvation
Worship must be on Saturday
Worship is on Sunday
Salvation is by faith alone
Salvation is by faith and works
Salvation cannot be lost once attained
Salvation can be lost once attained
Speaking in tongues is a necessary sign of salvation
Speaking in tongues is of the devil
Infant baptism is valid
Infant baptism is not valid
Homosexuality is a moral lifestyle
Abortion is morally acceptable

Etc.
 
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TalwinStark

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If you do that you are stuck with contradictory teachings. Jesus said he wants us to be one as he and the Father are one. I don't think they disagree about doctrine.

Some examples that make my point.

You can find protestant churches who follow the bible that teach:

Baptism is required for salvation
Baptism is not required for salvation
Worship must be on Saturday
Worship is on Sunday
Salvation is by faith alone
Salvation is by faith and works
Salvation cannot be lost once attained
Salvation can be lost once attained
Speaking in tongues is a necessary sign of salvation
Speaking in tongues is of the devil
Infant baptism is valid
Infant baptism is not valid
Homosexuality is a moral lifestyle
Abortion is morally acceptable

Etc.


I am not disagreeing with you at all. I wish we could go back to the times of the early church. It was much better then I think. I just really love playing devils advocate and just discuss things. I enjoy hearing others point of view.
 
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Albion

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If you do that you are stuck with contradictory teachings. Jesus said he wants us to be one as he and the Father are one. I don't think they disagree about doctrine.

Some examples that make my point.

You can find protestant churches who follow the bible that teach:

Baptism is required for salvation
Baptism is not required for salvation
Worship must be on Saturday
Worship is on Sunday
Salvation is by faith alone
Salvation is by faith and works
Salvation cannot be lost once attained
Salvation can be lost once attained
Speaking in tongues is a necessary sign of salvation
Speaking in tongues is of the devil
Infant baptism is valid
Infant baptism is not valid
Homosexuality is a moral lifestyle
Abortion is morally acceptable

Etc.
And you can find Catholic churches that disagree with other Catholic churches on an equally impressive list of doctrines. :sigh:
 
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Thursday

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And you can find Catholic churches that disagree with other Catholic churches on an equally impressive list of doctrines. :sigh:


Absolutely false. The Catholic Church is united under a single teaching authority.

There is only one Catholic Church.

You've posted this lie many times and been proven wrong. Why do you repeat it?
 
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Albion

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I'll use "Thursday's" format to answer that, Hawkiz:

The Pope is the head of the Church
All bishops are equal as successors of the Apostles
The Pope is infallible under certain circumstances
There is no Papal Infallibility
Salvation is to be done by immersion
Salvation is usually done by pouring
Women may be ordained to the priesthood
The priesthood is reserved for males only
Divorce and remarriage is forbidden
Up to four marriages are allowed
Purgatory is a place in the afterlife
There is no Purgatory

and so on
 
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Thursday

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I'll use "Thursday's" format to answer that, Hawkiz:

The Pope is the head of the Church
All bishops are equal as successors of the Apostles
The Pope is infallible under certain circumstances
There is no Papal Infallibility
Salvation is to be done by immersion
Salvation is usually done by pouring
Women may be ordained to the priesthood
The priesthood is reserved for males only
Divorce and remarriage is forbidden
Up to four marriages are allowed
Purgatory is a place in the afterlife
There is no Purgatory

and so on



You have failed to make your point again. If you want to know what Catholic doctrine is, you can easily find out. There are no contradictory doctrines taught by the Catholic Church.

This list of random observations is worthless.
 
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