The Issue Of Forgiveness

[sally.b]

I need some experienced peoples views and feedback on this topic.

Firstly let me explain where I'm at.

I was taught in church to always forgive and given the appropriate scriptures to go along with this.

I was also taught you MUST "Drop all your hurts like a hot potato!" ...
I was fine with this way of thinking for quite some time....

Trouble was that after many years I noticed amongst those circle of Christians that there was frequent abuse or neglect of important issues between relationships. I also suffered quite severely from the out come of this.

So I went to another style of Christian church and was told and shown in scripture how forgiveness is in fact conditional.

That God forgives but there is also judgement and for us to have a relationship with God we need to repent, acknowledge our sin and change.

Consequently likewise in out christian relationships together, for them to be healthy if we know someone has something against us or we have something against them then we need to "lay our gift at the alter and go and be reconciled with our brother."

Therefore before we give anything to God He is saying we need to be (or at least try to be) reconciled with the other person!

As I looked further into the meanings of "reconciliation" and also "restitution" and "restoration"... which also come into play here as well, I realised just how VERY important these issues are to us as a church functioning properly.
....Rather than just being a social club!

Yet I never saw this principle taught from the pulpit or practised amongst believers.

AND actually, when I tried to put this principle to some offending parties towards me, it seemed it was all too much for them.

I dont wish to ramble, but I will try to get to the point as I'm confused about the correct way to do this (seek forgiveness and reconciliation with other christians) so Ill try and explain the best way I can.

When you look at the word "forgive" it clearly states "the giving up of resentment AND claim to requital"

...so it seems like the end of the story, do you think ?

But if we cant claim "requital" then how can we be restored in the relationship when it has become out of balance?

In other words, how can protect ourselves from on going abuse, especially when we lay ourselves vunerable to trust in our interactions together as christians ....??

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT

 

[Joykins]

When you look at the word "forgive" it clearly states "the giving up of resentment AND claim to requital"

...seems like the end of the story right?

But if we cant claim "requital" then how can we be restored in the relationship when it has come severely out of balance..in other words how can protect ourselves from abuse.??

One would wonder if there is abuse why the relationship still exists in a meaningful way?

In other words, you can forgive someone (forbear a grudge) while realizing because of the hurt done in the past it would be unwise to open yourself up to this person again. Cutting off contact is not the same thing as not forgiving.

If reconciliation is desired, an experience counselor can help the people work through issues in relationships--keeping in mind that forgiveness in difficult cases may be a long-term process, and that trust needs to be re-earned...

 

[billwald]

One must diferentiate between forgiving and communicating forgiveness.

 

[yuzuyuzuken]

You forgive others because you are forgiven. (Col 3:13)

As far as God is concerned, we Christians are forgiven our past present and future. Your whole life is forgiven..

It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us and God forgive us because of that.

There are no more sins in your life to be forgiven. because Jesus blood has cleansed all your sins.

When we realize how much we are forgiven, we love much.
Those who are forgiven much, loves much.

When you admitted yourself as a sinner (confess your sin), you were forgiven and saved. That was the time you got saved.

Lets forgive one another as Christ has forgiven us.

 

[bliz]

sallyb -

Check out www.hispeace.org I think you will find some very helpful reading there.

 

[sally.b]

One would wonder if there is abuse why the relationship still exists in a meaningful way?

In other words, you can forgive someone (forbear a grudge) while realising because of the hurt done in the past it would be unwise to open yourself up to this person again. Cutting off contact is not the same thing as not forgiving.

If reconciliation is desired, an experience counsellor can help the people work through issues in relationships--keeping in mind that forgiveness in difficult cases may be a long-term process, and that trust needs to be re-earned...

I agree Joykins one would have to "wonder!".... and in fact I'm certain it doesn't exist in a "real" way but becomes a plastic relationship!

As far as cutting yourself off, well technically isn't that not acting in love ?

In general alot of what I'm talking about never gets to a councillor because the other party does not admit they are wrong OR is not interested in being taken to task, and so wont deal with it.

This is my concern as I believe to operate together as a body of believers in a Godly way and have balanced relationship together then we should be always conscious of how we affect others and willing to submit.

 

[sally.b]

One must diferentiate between forgiving and communicating forgiveness.

Sorry Bill but i dont get what you mean? :o

 

[sally.b]

yuz;You forgive others because you are forgiven. (Col 3:13)

sb; Surely forgivness is a process though as in where it says to "leave your gift at the alter" etc

yuz; As far as God is concerned, we Christians are forgiven our past present and future. Your whole life is forgiven..

sb;We will still stand to judgement though and being forgiven is not a licence to sin so at some point we need to be accountable and choose not to sin as sin in its fullness"leads to death"..to go on sinning, leads to death.

yuz;It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us and God forgive us because of that.

sb;Certainly and AMEN to that !

yuz;There are no more sins in your life to be forgiven. because Jesus blood has cleansed all your sins.

When we realize how much we are forgiven, we love much.
Those who are forgiven much, loves much.

sb;Yes, that is true but if we are left open to abuse from others who are not accountable we are at some point going to start to get burnt out and in fact we can loose our faith.

yuz;When you admitted yourself as a sinner (confess your sin), you were forgiven and saved. That was the time you got saved.

Lets forgive one another as Christ has forgiven us.

sb;

 

[sally.b]

sallyb -

Check out hispeace.org I think you will find some very helpful reading there.

okey dokey bliz!... thanks for that, will give it a good look over

 

[Fantine]

But if we cant claim "requital" then how can we be restored in the relationship when it has come severely out of balance..in other words how can protect ourselves from abuse.??

I think that you can forgive someone and still 'move on.'

Sister Helen Prejean (about whom the film Dead Man Walking was made) talks about the need for forgiveness for one's own mental health.

She talks about hatred and the desire for revenge as a heavy burden the victim (or victim's family) carries around with them, weighing down everything they do, preventing them from leading a full life.

Often the malefactor isn't even aware of the victim who is harboring hatred for him. The malefactor isn't suffering; the victim is.

Forgiveness is liberating.

Forgiveness and Mental Health

"It has only been in the last ten years that the mental health community has conducted research on forgiveness, and the results seem clear. Forgiveness mitigates depression and anxiety, increases self-esteem, and improves physical health and emotional well-being. It releases people from living in bondage and allows them to live in freedom. Forgiveness heals the soul."

Jerry Sittser
Discovering God's Will

But one does not have to continue an unhealthy relationship to forgive. One can forgive, release anger, wish the forgiven person well, and move on.

Remaining in an abusive or dysfunctional relationship can be due to co-dependency.

 

[Harlan Norris]

I need some experienced peoples views and feedback on this topic.

Firstly let me explain where I'm at.

I was taught in church to always forgive and given the appropriate scriptures to go along with this. I was also told you MUST "drop your hurts like a hot potato" ...I was fine with this way of thinking for some time....

Trouble was that after many years I noticed amongst those circle of Christians that there was frequent abuse or neglect of important issues between relationships. I also suffered quite severely from the out come of this.

So I went to another style of Christian church and was told and shown in scripture how forgiveness is in fact conditional...That God forgives but there is also judgement and for us to have a relationship with God we need to repent and change.

Therefore in out relationships together likewise for them to be healthy if we know someone has something against us or we have something against them then we need to "lay our gift at the alter and go and be reconciled with our brother"
Therefore before we give anything to God He is saying we need to be (or at least try to be) reconciled with the other person.
As I looked further into the meanings of "reconciliation" and also "restitution" and "restoration"... which come into play here as well, I realised just how important this issue is to us as a church functioning properly.

Yet I never saw this principle taught or practised so when I tried to put this to some offending parties ..it seemed it was all too much for them.

Anyhow I dont want to ramble at this stage but I will try to get to the point as I'm confused about the correct way to do this so Ill try and explain the best way I can.

When you look at the word "forgive" it clearly states "the giving up of resentment AND claim to requital"

...seems like the end of the story right?

But if we cant claim "requital" then how can we be restored in the relationship when it has come severely out of balance..in other words how can protect ourselves from abuse.??

It's hard to imagine what might be happening to you. Are people at your church wreaking your life. Or is it people at work? What I'm saying is for me at least life is fairly peaceful. I don't go out of my way to correct others. This is mainly because it doesn't work. Frankly I don't know anyone that owes me an apology. The people who have caused me problems in my life are no longer part of my life. I don't hate them. I feel better when they are not around. I don't think it's possible to have a good relationship with everyone. We do our best to live according to the example of Jesus. Sometimes loving your enemy means getting away from him. Don't worry he'll find someone else to pick on. Once your away, try to forgive and forget. If you cross paths again, treat that meeting like any first time meeting.

 

[sally.b]

ooops!

 

[sally.b]

Fantine;I think that you can forgive someone and still 'move on.'

sally;Yes I agree but often you cant get away from the situation

Fantine;Forgiveness is liberating.

sally;Yes for sure it is and I am not saying that it isnt mandetory to forgive.

Fantine;But one does not have to continue an unhealthy relationship to forgive. One can forgive, release anger, wish the forgiven person well, and move on.

sally;again i stress thats not always possible

Fantine;Remaining in an abusive or dysfunctional relationship can be due to co-dependency.

sally; I guess so but if it is supposed to be a "Christian" relationship then you cant always just walk, or ignore the problem. In fact I see that as being just as un-Godly to do that.

 

[whimsyjean]

I deleted. Post was inappropriate I think.

 

[sally.b]

It's hard to imagine what might be happening to you. Are people at your church wreaking your life. Or is it people at work? What I'm saying is for me at least life is fairly peaceful. I don't go out of my way to correct others. This is mainly because it doesn't work. Frankly I don't know anyone that owes me an apology. The people who have caused me problems in my life are no longer part of my life. I don't hate them. I feel better when they are not around. I don't think it's possible to have a good relationship with everyone. We do our best to live according to the example of Jesus. Sometimes loving your enemy means getting away from him. Don't worry he'll find someone else to pick on. Once your away, try to forgive and forget. If you cross paths again, treat that meeting like any first time meeting.

People at church have wrecked my life yes in a sense, but i still recognize that I cant blame every one and i have to look at myself, but at times i get tired of this especially when it seems they go their own merry little way and have little regard for me especially when they know i have tryed to be very kind to them.
I dont hate people, but I do hate their chosen ignorance and lack of appreciation especially when they have been brought up as Christians and I was fairly young in the Lord but trying to excel.

Trouble is I DO worry they will find someone else to pick on if they dont learn the significance of accountability

As far as crosing paths again is concerned, I have difficulty when this happens as there was no reconciliation or restitution between us however they still feel free to come up and greet me with a kiss and laugh and pretend everything is ok.

 

[Harlan Norris]

People at church have wrecked my life yes in a sense, but i still recognize that I cant blame every one and i have to look at myself, but at times i get tired of this especially when it seems they go their own merry little way and have little regard for me especially when they know i have tryed to be very kind to them.
I dont hate people, but I do hate their chosen ignorance and lack of appreciation especially when they have been brought up as Christians and I was fairly young in the Lord but trying to excel.

Trouble is I DO worry they will find someone else to pick on if they dont learn the significance of accountability

As far as crosing paths again is concerned, I have difficulty when this happens as there was no reconciliation or restitution between us however they still feel free to come up and greet me with a kiss and laugh and pretend everything is ok.

Forgiveness isn't about getting restitution or some other kind of payback from the offending party. It's about recogniseing that we are all sinners and imperfect, and yet we have been forgiven. This is in spite of the fact that we continue to sin. The lords prayer says, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.So, if someone has caused you some kind of grief. Let it go, and greet them with a kiss and a laugh, and mean it.We do this because we have been forgiven. In life attitude is everything. Good attitude. Good life. As far as whether the offenders have access to others for their purpose. Well, if they do something wrong. That's what THEY did. Not your problem.

 

[Joykins]

Trouble is I DO worry they will find someone else to pick on if they dont learn the significance of accountability

You have been taught that holding people accountable and cutting off contact is inconsistent with love and forgiveness. It is not. Love cares enough about another's growth to hold them accountable. Forgiveness is something that happens within *yourself* and transforms the way you think about people that have hurt you. Wishing them no ill, and wishing no revenge. Bearing no grudge. Hoping that these people will be able to learn and grow and overcome their sins so they don't hurt anyone else.

I love my children and forgive them when they hurt me, but I still discipline them and hold them accountable for what they have done.

As far as crosing paths again is concerned, I have difficulty when this happens as there was no reconciliation or restitution between us however they still feel free to come up and greet me with a kiss and laugh and pretend everything is ok.

Eh, that's hard. It only takes one to forgive, but it takes 2 for reconciliation or restitution. Is there some way to hold these people accountable that would be malice-free?

If our enemy kisses us on one cheek, are we to turn to him the other also?

 

[sally.b]

Forgiveness isn't about getting restitution or some other kind of payback from the offending party. It's about recogniseing that we are all sinners and imperfect, and yet we have been forgiven. This is in spite of the fact that we continue to sin. The lords prayer says, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.So, if someone has caused you some kind of grief. Let it go, and greet them with a kiss and a laugh, and mean it.We do this because we have been forgiven. In life attitude is everything. Good attitude. Good life. As far as whether the offenders have access to others for their purpose. Well, if they do something wrong. That's what THEY did. Not your problem.

So why does the bible tell us to go to our brother and show him his fault and seek to restore the relationship ?
If you've "won your brother over" then surely he would wish to repay his debt or show true sorryness for his abuse.

 

[sally.b]

Joykins;You have been taught that holding people accountable and cutting off contact is inconsistent with love and forgiveness. It is not. Love cares enough about another's growth to hold them accountable.

sbYes this is how i feel

Joykins;Forgiveness is something that happens within *yourself* and transforms the way you think about people that have hurt you. Wishing them no ill, and wishing no revenge. Bearing no grudge. Hoping that these people will be able to learn and grow and overcome their sins so they don't hurt anyone else.

sbYes i believe God tells us to forgive solely for our own benefit, but reconciliation with the other person is what we do for God.

Joykins;Eh, that's hard. It only takes one to forgive, but it takes 2 for reconciliation or restitution. Is there some way to hold these people accountable that would be malice-free?

sb;Yes that's how I see it too.

.....I have tryed to write letters to the people concerned explaining how I felt and was very positve and kind with my words but it availed nothing (with some not even a response.)
I have to add that I have tryed this on 4 different occasions over 4 different situations with 4 different people, some I even sent two letters to. These situations happened over a long period and each incident has no relation to the other.
Two of the parties were pastors of 2 different churches, so this was not a light situation by any means for me

 

[Harlan Norris]

So why does the bible tell us to go to our brother and show him his fault and seek to restore the relationship ?
If you've "won your brother over" then surely he would wish to repay his debt or show true sorryness for his abuse.

Well, for one thing it's important to make shure that it's your brother that has erred. If your brother is engaged in some sinfull act that you are aware of, then go to him or her with it.However it's important to remember that they have not necessarily sinned against you personally. So, if they didn't run off with your wife or husband,or harm one of your children,then the issue is between them and God. So, you have rebuked them for their own good. Always remember the next rebuke may be comming your way. So do it in a manner that will be helpful,not destructive. That is what we would want THEM to do.We want to bring people back into the fold, not drive them out because they are not rightious as we.