The Inspiration of Scripture

Ken Rank · Apr 28, 2019

devin553344 said:
I was actually referring to stoning people to death and things like those laws, Moses' laws. But sure the ten commandments weren't changed. Just slavery and killing sinners, polygamy and such.

There are contradictions in the bible as have been discussed thoroughly in these forums, and doing a simple search on the internet regarding that will avail much. But I didn't feel like testing @Tree of Life 's idea, because it is a safe approach to scripture.

So, the Torah (Law) was given to Israel at Sinai in writing (I can show that many commandments existed before then) and the punishments and ability to prosecute were added at that time. Why? Because the Torah was to be used by Israel as their national rule of law. In fact, once every 7 years the king (whoever that was at the time) was to read the Torah to the people so that, they knew God's will which for Israel, was also their civil law.

During the time of Yeshua, Rome ruled the land. Even though we see incidents of certain sects of Jews taking matters into their own hands (i.e. the stoning of Stephen) Rome was still the authority of the land at the time. The Torah was designed to operate in it's fullness when all of Israel was in the land and a king (and ultimately Messiah) would reign. Today we also live under secular rule and simply can't take matters in our own hands without facing punishment by secular authorities.

So, when it comes to the Law we do what we can where we are. In other words, we don't steal, don't covet, don't murder... we love neighbor, we love God (etc. etc. etc.) and those things we can't do, we don't. Christianity has turned God's law (613 commandments, the vast majority of which don't effect you at all) into a burden and curse and then accept without complaint working until May 12th to pay taxes and we accept the million other laws that rule our life. And yes, I know Paul called the law a curse... but we take that out of context, he was quoting Deuteronomy.

Chesterton · Apr 28, 2019

nonaeroterraqueous said:
That's similar to the argument that Mary had to be perfect to give birth to a perfect Christ. Then her parents would have to be perfect, and their parents, et cetera, all the way back to Adam and Eve, whom we already know were not perfect.

In this case, claiming that it took infallible people to canonize scripture would imply that it would also take infallible people to accept the authority of the ones who canonized it, which ultimately leads back to Tree of Life, who would then have to accept his own infallibility just to accept the infallible line all the way back to the Bible. In other words, it's a silly argument. The infallibility, in reality, could stop at any point in that line, if it ever existed in the first place. We don't have to accept the infallibility of some church leader two hundred years after Christ just to accept the infallibility of the scripture any more than we have to accept our own infallibility to recognize such in the document, ourselves.

I didn't say anything about anyone being infallible.

nonaeroterraqueous · Apr 28, 2019

Tone said:
Or the infallibilty of Newton for "discovering" gravity...

Exactly.

Tree of Life · Apr 28, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Are you claiming it impossible for God to speak to someone through works of literature and/or perhaps inspire them to seek him?

I believe that God can use all sorts of things to draw people to seek him. But the Bible is uniquely God's infallible word and no other words can be described as such. We cannot read the Great Gatsby alone and discover how to be saved or how to live in a way pleasing to God.

Now could you kindly answer my question?

Tree of Life · Apr 28, 2019

Chesterton said:
If it does, you should acknowledge those people who preserved it. When Christianity was illegal in Rome, people who got caught in possession of handwritten copies of Paul's letters, for example, could be charged with a crime, imprisoned, even killed. These people formed the early Orthodox Church, which still exists today.

I'm grateful for them!

Ken Rank · Apr 28, 2019

mark kennedy said:
2 Tim. 3:16-17 tells all Scripture is 'inspired by God' literally, 'God breathed'. There are different levels of inspiration and authority but the Scripture as canon 'rule for life' is not seriously disputed in Christiandom. The expression 'God breathed', reminds me of the creation of Adam when God breated the breath of life into him and he became a living soul.

Interestingly, the only "Scripture" in that day was the OT. The NT was at least 140 years after 1 Timothy in terms of being canonized and accepted as Scripture (as we use the word... i.e. bible). Peter called Paul's work the same word we translate as Scripture, but Paul's letters were to specific churches dealing with specific issues and weren't considered "the bible" by anyone until 200AD.

Tree of Life · Apr 28, 2019

Ken Rank said:
Interestingly, the only "Scripture" in that day was the OT. The NT was at least 140 years after 1 Timothy in terms of being canonized and accepted as Scripture (as we use the word... i.e. bible). Peter called Paul's work the same word we translate as Scripture, but Paul's letters were to specific churches dealing with specific issues and weren't considered "the bible" by anyone until 200AD.

How can this be since Peter demonstrably considers Paul's words to be Scripture in the late 60s?

Ken Rank · Apr 28, 2019

Tone said:
Might want to change that word...

If you are being funny you need emoticons. You used Elohim which most know as God, but then used Haftarah (incorrectly) and most don't know what it is. If you want to be understood, which is why we all share what we think we know here... you want to make sure those reading know what you are saying. EVERYONE knows what the word messiah means.

Tone · Apr 28, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I believe that God can use all sorts of things to draw people to seek him. But the Bible is uniquely God's infallible word and no other words can be described as such. We cannot read the Great Gatsby alone and discover how to be saved or how to live in a way pleasing to God.

Now could you kindly answer my question?

True, these works can only echo what Is Written, and anything that does come through, may be traced back as an effect of the author's own encounter with Biblical thought.

Tone · Apr 28, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I'm grateful for them!

Yeah, thanks guys!

Chesterton · Apr 28, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I'm grateful for them!

Okay. I guess that's as good as I'll get here.

Tone · Apr 28, 2019

Ken Rank said:
If you are being funny you need emoticons. You used Elohim which most know as God, but then used Haftarah (incorrectly) and most don't know what it is. If you want to be understood, which is why we all share what we think we know here... you want to make sure those reading know what you are saying. EVERYONE knows what the word messiah means.

Use the links! . And, sorry for my mistake...I shall double my efforts

*The Law, the Prophets, and the New Covenant!

bekkilyn · Apr 28, 2019

Tree of Life said:
I believe that God can use all sorts of things to draw people to seek him. But the Bible is uniquely God's infallible word and no other words can be described as such. We cannot read the Great Gatsby alone and discover how to be saved or how to live in a way pleasing to God.

Now could you kindly answer my question?

People could simply read the book of John and discover how to be saved (therefore it is *sufficient* for that purpose), but that doesn't also necessitate making the book infallible or John into a Christian version of the Oracle of Delphi. Infallibility applies to God alone. The bible is not God.

Tree of Life · Apr 28, 2019

bekkilyn said:
People could simply read the book of John and discover how to be saved (therefore it is *sufficient* for that purpose), but that doesn't also necessitate making the book infallible or John into a Christian version of the Oracle of Delphi.

How can you tell the difference between what is accurate in the Bible and what is inaccurate, since you deny its infallibility?

Infallibility applies to God alone.

How do you know that?

The bible is not God.

No one is claiming that the Bible is God.

redleghunter · Apr 28, 2019

Tree of Life said:
The Bible is inspired by God. What does this mean?

Simply put - "What the Bible says, God says."

Some say that the Bible is inspired, but they are not comfortable saying that the Bible is the very words of God. They have some looser, stranger view of inspiration.

What the Bible says, God says. Can we give this a hearty "Amen"?

Amen.

redleghunter · Apr 28, 2019

Chesterton said:
Excellent! Glad to see you place unquestioning trust in the people who canonized it.

They had no choice since they are the words of God.

Tone · Apr 28, 2019

Tone said:
Use the links! . And, sorry for my mistake...I shall double my efforts

*The Law, the Prophets, and the New Covenant!

@Ken Rank...I see what you mean...I left these out:

"The Book of Psalms (/sɑːmz/ or /sɔː(l)mz/ SAW(L)MZ; Hebrew: תְּהִלִּים, Tehillim, "praises"), commonly referred to simply as Psalms or "the Psalms", is the first book of the Ketuvim ("Writings"), the third section of the Hebrew Bible, and thus a book of the Christian Old Testament."

*As to my using "Elohim"...this will continue.

redleghunter · Apr 28, 2019

David Cabrera said:
"So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him" (Acts 8:30-31).

Yes I have a pastor too! He’s really blessed.

redleghunter · Apr 28, 2019

David Cabrera said:
I'm sure the Ethiopian and Luke said that, not God.

Yet God wanted us to know about this conversion.

bekkilyn · Apr 28, 2019

Tree of Life said:
How can you tell the difference between what is accurate in the Bible and what is inaccurate, since you deny its infallibility?

If it is sufficient for salvation and someone is saved, why would the difference between what is accurate and inaccurate matter? The foundation of our faith isn't about the necessity of having an infallible group of writings (pretty shaky foundation, that one), but in the infallible person of Jesus Christ (God).

How do you know that?

Because otherwise, God would not be God and we could thus worship whatever we pleased provided it bears the label "infallible". After all, if God is only one out of a great many other infallible things, then what difference would it make which infallible thing we chose to worship?

No one is claiming that the Bible is God.

If you are claiming that the bible is infallible, then you are giving it equal status with God at the very least, and God is not limited to written words on a page, no matter how sufficient they may be for their purpose.

The Inspiration of Scripture

What the Bible says, God says.

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