The insect kinds

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

if there is one category of animal that makes the Noah story silly and the concept of kinds even more so, it's the insects. Where do you draw the line of kind? the beetle kind? beetles are the largest order in the animal kingdom with nearly 300 families and 350,000 species (and that's just the ones we know of). It's too many tiny critters for Noah to keep track of and no matter how you clump them together, for them to have diverged like that in a few thousand years would require far far FAR more evolution than evolution allows for.
What's the creationist response to this?

 

[[serious]]

Super mega ultra evolution after the flood is generally cited as the explanation for why evolution doesn't happen.

 

[Bushido216]

Super mega ultra evolution after the flood is generally cited as the explanation for why evolution doesn't happen.

The unstoppable force meets the immovable object. To reconcile God creates an object so heavy that He Himself cannot lift it.

 

[Deadbolt]

I'm calling byte's law on this thread.

 

[RedAndy]

What's the creationist response to this?

FLOATING VEGETATION MATS!

No, seriously. I'll look for a source later.

 

[Deadbolt]

FLOATING VEGETATION MATS!

No, seriously. I'll look for a source later.

This suggests that they weren't on the ark, which means that two EVERY kind was not taken, this suggests that the bible is NOT %100 literal, Ergo it does not pass the AiG test and we are left with...Nothing.

 

[Blayz]

if there is one category of animal that makes the Noah story silly and the concept of kinds even more so, it's the insects. Where do you draw the line of kind?

creepy
crawly
bitey
buzzy
stingy

 

[MrGoodBytes]

I'm calling byte's law on this thread.

Seconded.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

if there is one category of animal that makes the Noah story silly and the concept of kinds even more so, it's the insects. Where do you draw the line of kind? the beetle kind? beetles are the largest order in the animal kingdom with nearly 300 families and 350,000 species (and that's just the ones we know of). It's too many tiny critters for Noah to keep track of and no matter how you clump them together, for them to have diverged like that in a few thousand years would require far far FAR more evolution than evolution allows for.
What's the creationist response to this?

This suggests that they weren't on the ark, which means that two EVERY kind was not taken, this suggests that the bible is NOT %100 literal, Ergo it does not pass the AiG test and we are left with...Nothing.

Deadbolt, you're on the right lines: insects weren't taken on the Ark.

In fact, only things that breathe through their nostrils were taken on the Ark. This excludes insects, which breathe through spiracles lining their body.

Personally, how insects survived if they weren't on the Ark is a mystery to me.

 

[Naraoia]

Deadbolt, you're on the right lines: insects weren't taken on the Ark.

In fact, only things that breathe through their nostrils were taken on the Ark. This excludes insects, which breathe through spiracles lining their body.

Personally, how insects survived if they weren't on the Ark is a mystery to me.

Or anything other than tetrapods plus lungfish Or are there any other things that breathe through their nostrils I don't know of?

 

[Mockingbirdred]

Ok, heres a few holes in the Noahs Ark story.

If you took two lions, what are you meant to feed them when you have to preserve all the animals on the boat?

Or two Giraffes? Unless Noah took a load of living trees on there with him.

And what about Iguanas? How did he know that he was taking a male and a female Iguana on board? Iguanas are notoriously difficult to sex, unless you have specific equipment, and even then the knowledge of how to sex them has only been available in recent times.

And how about all the various animals that need very specific environments to live in? How, for example, did he manage to create the neccessary temperatures to keep snakes?

And yes, what about all the insects?

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok, heres a few holes in the Noahs Ark story.

If you took two lions, what are you meant to feed them when you have to preserve all the animals on the boat?

Or two Giraffes? Unless Noah took a load of living trees on there with him.

And what about Iguanas? How did he know that he was taking a male and a female Iguana on board? Iguanas are notoriously difficult to sex, unless you have specific equipment, and even then the knowledge of how to sex them has only been available in recent times.

And how about all the various animals that need very specific environments to live in? How, for example, did he manage to create the neccessary temperatures to keep snakes?

And yes, what about all the insects?

Keep in mind that this was a supernatural event, planned and executed by God. As I tell others, the Bible was silent on how these "side issues" were handled; but we're not so ignorant of how God operates that we cannot formulate an intelligent hypothesis. All we have to do, for instance, is break down the Flood story into various scenarios, then see how God handled similar scenarios.

For instance:

• Q: How were the animals fed aboard the Ark?
• A: Just like the widow of Zarephath was fed. *
• Q: How could the Ark withstand the stress of its "voyage"?
• A: Just like the Israelites' clothes did in the wilderness. **
• Q: How did the occupants survive inside this man-made biosphere?
• A: Just like Daniel's friends survived the furnace. ***

*

[bible]1 Kings 17:14-16[/bible]

**

[bible]Deuteronomy 29:5[/bible]

***

[bible]Daniel 3:27[/bible]
​

I'm fond of saying that, in my opinion, there was a ninth Person on the Ark.
​

 

[CACTUSJACKmankin]

Keep in mind that this was a supernatural event, planned and executed by God. As I tell others, the Bible was silent on how these "side issues" were handled; but we're not so ignorant of how God operates that we cannot formulate an intelligent hypothesis. All we have to do, for instance, is break down the Flood story into various scenarios, then see how God handled similar scenarios.

For instance:

• Q: How were the animals fed aboard the Ark?
• A: Just like the widow of Zarephath was fed. *
• Q: How could the Ark withstand the stress of its "voyage"?
• A: Just like the Israelites' clothes did in the wilderness. **
• Q: How did the occupants survive inside this man-made biosphere?
• A: Just like Daniel's friends survived the furnace. ***

*​

[bible]1 Kings 17:14-16[/bible]​

**

[bible]Deuteronomy 29:5[/bible]​

***

[bible]Daniel 3:27[/bible]​

I'm fond of saying that, in my opinion, there was a ninth Person on the Ark.​

​

​

​

insects dont just raise absurdity issues for Noah, although there's plenty of that. They also highlight the problem of defining kinds because no matter what you use, there are so many different varieties of them that in a few thousand years after the flood it requires more evolution than evolution can allow.

 

[Molal]

creepy
crawly
bitey
buzzy
stingy

I really like this classification system

 

[Mockingbirdred]

Keep in mind that this was a supernatural event, planned and executed by God. As I tell others, the Bible was silent on how these "side issues" were handled; but we're not so ignorant of how God operates that we cannot formulate an intelligent hypothesis. All we have to do, for instance, is break down the Flood story into various scenarios, then see how God handled similar scenarios.

For instance:

• Q: How were the animals fed aboard the Ark?
• A: Just like the widow of Zarephath was fed. *
• Q: How could the Ark withstand the stress of its "voyage"?
• A: Just like the Israelites' clothes did in the wilderness. **
• Q: How did the occupants survive inside this man-made biosphere?
• A: Just like Daniel's friends survived the furnace. ***

*

[bible]1 Kings 17:14-16[/bible]

**

[bible]Deuteronomy 29:5[/bible]

***

[bible]Daniel 3:27[/bible]
​

I'm fond of saying that, in my opinion, there was a ninth Person on the Ark.
​

Ok, you're working on the idea that these things all actually happened. But that's fine. Although I was amused by the fact that you dodge many logical questions by simply saying "the bible doesn't mention it". I guess that just means "don't think about it" huh?

Let me just ask you one more question though...

How big was this boat?

Because it seems to me, 2 of every species, and I mean every species, bearing in mind there are millions upon millions of beetles alone, not to mention all the other forms of insects, birds, and mammals (oh, and all the other species that aren't readily found in the middle east, like polar bears for example), are going to take up a hell of a lot of room. We're talking vast acres of land here.

And Noah built this boat you say? What, did he have the entire P&O shipping company behind him?

Think of it in feasible terms. 1 man (or a hundred men), would take years to build such a boat. If Noah did it alone, he would have had to live to about 300 in order to complete it. And that's probably being generous.

One more question, why not...

If Noah had 2 of every single species on the ark, EVERY SINGLE ONE, why didn't we discover the Dodo until the 17th century?

And why are we still discovering new species of animal today?

Ok so that was two questions...

 

[AV1611VET]

I had a thread once called Taking Questions on Creation and/or the Flood, but I can't find it right now, so I'll go ahead and answer these. I may start a new thread based just on the Flood.

Anyway...

How big was this boat?

This was not a "boat." It was an ark --- a containment vessel --- and it was 300 x 50 x 30 cubits, or 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high; interpreting the cubit as 18 inches. There are three arks mentioned in the Scriptures, and none were "boats" per se.

Because it seems to me, 2 of every species, and I mean every species, bearing in mind there are millions upon millions of beetles alone, not to mention all the other forms of insects, birds, and mammals (oh, and all the other species that aren't readily found in the middle east, like polar bears for example), are going to take up a ... lot of room.

The "species" didn't board the ark --- their "kinds" did. "Kinds" is a higher taxonomic entry that is not recognized by today's atheistic scientific standards, and therefore is not considered a valid point when debating with those who do use it.

You mentioned polar bears --- they didn't exist at the time. The earth just before the Flood, consisted of one giant supercontinent (Pangaea), with a uniform temperature of probably around 75 degrees Fahrenheit. There were no polar regions until the Water Canopy disintegrated, and the sun's rays hit the earth directly, causing the polar climatology.

And Noah built this boat you say? What, did he have the entire P&O shipping company behind him?

Better than that --- He had the Holy Spirit's help --- as Bezaleel did when it came time to build the Tabernacle.

[bible]Exodus 31:1-3[/bible]

Think of it in feasible terms. 1 man (or a hundred men), would take years to build such a boat. If Noah did it alone, he would have had to live to about 300 in order to complete it. And that's probably being generous.

It took Noah 120 years to build the Ark.

[bible]Genesis 6:3[/bible]

One more question, why not...

If Noah had 2 of every single species on the ark, EVERY SINGLE ONE, why didn't we discover the Dodo until the 17th century?

And why are we still discovering new species of animal today?

Ok so that was two questions...

The only example I can think of is a dog. Only coyote would have had to have boarded the Ark. Afterwards those coyote gave us more coyote, wolves, all the domestic dogs, and dingos.

 

[Athrond]

The "species" didn't board the ark --- their "kinds" did. "Kinds" is a higher taxonomic entry that is not recognized by today's atheistic scientific standards, and therefore is not considered a valid point when debating with those who do use it.
You mentioned polar bears --- they didn't exist at the time. The earth just before the Flood, consisted of one giant supercontinent (Pangaea), with a uniform temperature of probably around 75 degrees Fahrenheit. There were no polar regions until the Water Canopy disintegrated, and the sun's rays hit the earth directly, causing the polar climatology.

LIES. Where in the bible exactly do you get your information about polar bears and whatnot? My guess is in:

making-up-stuff-to-fit-my-believs 66:6

All that horsemanure about supercontinents wich ofcource the bible doesn't mention.

Also you ignore all information thrown at you about the problem of "water canopies" and rapid continential drift. The last wich would have iradicated all life, save perhaps bacteria.

Athrond

 

[Mockingbirdred]

This was not a "boat." It was an ark --- a containment vessel --- and it was 300 x 50 x 30 cubits, or 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high; interpreting the cubit as 18 inches. There are three arks mentioned in the Scriptures, and none were "boats" per se.
.

You are aware that that really isn't that big aren't you? Even if animals "kinds" got on board instead of individual examples of every animal, we're still talking about a very very large amount of room needed. Way more than 450x75x45.

And by saying that their "kinds" then went on to provide new breeds of animals, you are also aware that that's what most people would call "evolution".

You mentioned polar bears --- they didn't exist at the time. The earth just before the Flood, consisted of one giant supercontinent (Pangaea), with a uniform temperature of probably around 75 degrees Fahrenheit. There were no polar regions until the Water Canopy disintegrated, and the sun's rays hit the earth directly, causing the polar climatology.

Ok. Let me put you straight on a few things here. Pangaea only existed during the paleozoic and mesozoic eras. Which were about 250 million years ago. This predates the old testament by such a long way it isn't even funny.

And the current polar regions have existed since the start of the last ice age, which ENDED 10,000 years ago, again predating the old testament by quite a large amount of time. About 8,800 years before in fact.

Oh, and the earliest recorded fossils of Polar bears are about 200,000 years old (around the same time man was modern man was becoming the dominant species on Earth). Again, predating the old testament by some way. that's about 198,800 years before the old testament.

 

[Naraoia]

Poor Mockingbirdred, you've never met AV's embedded age. (I have a feeling that you soon will )

 

[talkingmonkey]

The only example I can think of is a dog. Only coyote would have had to have boarded the Ark. Afterwards those coyote gave us more coyote, wolves, all the domestic dogs, and dingos.

Ahhh... So even though Coyotes are a different species to Wolves, they still evolved into them?

They all come from the Genus Canis, then branch out into their respective species - Lupis (wolves, dingos...and yes domestic dogs), Latrans (coyotes) etc...


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