LDS The Infallibility of the Prophets

He is the way said:

Did Jesus sin? The New Testament was written after His death.

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Jesus did not sin. context is everything -

Abraham is not Jesus.

Jesus had a sinless father - Abraham did not.
Abraham had a sinful nature -- Jesus did not.

What part of this would be "news"?

BobRyan said: ↑
interesting -- how does this solve the problem you have with the book of Mormon condemning polygamy as abomination for which those tribes "must leave" Israel since God regards the polygamy of David and Solomon as "abomination"??

No matter who wrote BoM.. whether it was taken from Spalding or it "came out of staring in a hat" - either way is fine with me as the basis for the book - I just don't see how this helps you resolve the issue.

Daniel Marsh said:

LDS church releases photos of Joseph Smith's seer stone
The Seer Stone Controversy : Writing the "Book of Mormon" on JSTOR

"In the context of the restored gospel, a seer stone is a stone through which a seer receives divine communication. The Book of Mormon defines a seer as a “revelator and a prophet also” (Mosiah 8:15-16)." 10 insights about Joseph Smith and seer stones from the authors of 'Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones'

Occult in America: Joseph Smith

Yes, Joseph Smith Really Did Use a Seer Stone in the Translation of the Book of Mormon

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Good points - I am not trying to argue that Joseph Smith getting the BoM "from a hat covering a glass stone" is better or worse than getting it from Spalding's manuscript.

My argument was about the "abomination" statement in BoM saying that King David and King Solomon's polygamy was "abomination" before God - right after we saw an LDS member claim that God was just fine with David having polygamy and that is why it was supposedly ok for Joseph Smith.

I notice this point is being dropped like a hot potato.

BobRyan said: ↑
Gen 26:5 cannot be bent into a claim that Abraham never sinned.

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He is the way said:

Why not?

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Oseas said:

Friend, Have you never read? where no law is, there is no transgression.

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ok then.. gospel ... starts like this

Rom 5
2 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

1 John 3:4 "sin IS transgression of the Law"

Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned"
Rom 3:19 "19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;"
Gen 3: 3 God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”

Oseas said:

Romans 2:v.5-16
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the Day of wrath and revelation of the righteous Judgment of God; - the Day of God's wrath has arrived -
6 Who will render to every MAN according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW (the Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jews)shall be Judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

16 In the Day (this Day arrived)when God shall Judge the secrets of MEN by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
.

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That text in Romans 2 - is not about anyone being sinless. It is a contrast between the wicked and the righteous -- it is not a claim that the good guys "never sinned". "The Gospel" always includes forgiveness of sins.

Oseas said:

Scriptures, please, the discussion is about the accusation of Abraham's sin.

Through the messages posted earlier in this topic, the discussion is about the accusation against Abraham implying or insinuating that he lied to Abimelech, and sinned before God, what is not true. By the way, God is the Truth. The Word is God.

I quoted Scriptures in my earlier post : "where no law is, there is no transgression-Romans 4:v.15". The law was given by Moses-John 1:v.17-, i.e. four hundred and thirty years after Abraham-Gal.3:v.17.

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"God’s Word defines sin as “the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4, KJV) or “lawlessness” (New King James Version, NIV). Therefore, “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15). This is what the Bible clearly says! So do we find transgressions of the Ten Commandments described as sinful before Mt. Sinai? Clearly we do.

For example, Genesis 13:13 tells us that “the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord.” Since sin is violating God’s law, the people of Sodom could not have been punished for being wicked and sinful if no law condemned what they were doing. We must conclude, therefore, that God had already made available the knowledge of what is sinful.

Here is a clear example. Genesis 20:3-9 and Genesis 39:7-9 describe adultery as “a great sin” and a “sin against God.” Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment.

In Genesis 3:6-17, God punishes Adam and Eve for their coveting and stealing—breaking the Tenth and Eighth Commandments. They also dishonored Him as their parent, violating the Fifth Commandment.

In Genesis 4:9-12, God punishes Cain for murder and lying—violations of the Sixth and Ninth Commandments.

In Exodus 16:4, several days to several weeks before God established His covenant with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai, we find God giving them a test to see “whether they will walk in My law or not.” His test involved whether they would rest on the seventh-day Sabbath as He commanded in the Fourth Commandment of that law—with which they were at least partly familiar. The seventh day had been hallowed—set aside as holy by God—from the time of Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:1-3).

God’s reaction to their disobedience is revealing. He exclaims, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?” (Exodus 16:28). God clearly speaks of both His “commandments and … laws” as already existing and in force well before He listed the Ten Commandments verbally at Mt. Sinai, as described four chapters later! Therefore, the Ten Commandments were only codified—written in stone as part of a formal covenant—at Mt. Sinai. Scripture clearly shows that they existed and were in force well before then.

This is stated explicitly in Genesis 26:5, where God tells Isaac that He blessed his father Abraham “because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” This event took place centuries before the covenant at Mt. Sinai, centuries before Moses and two generations before Judah, head of the tribe that much later would become known as the Jews, was born! (Be sure to read “Did Abraham Keep the Same Commandments God Gave to Moses?” on page 13).

In Leviticus 18:21-27, God calls the idolatrous practices of the people of the land of Canaan “abominations”—actions so filthy and degrading that God compared their expulsion to being “vomited out” of the land (Leviticus 18:28). What was their sin? Among other things, idolatry (the worship of false gods) and human sacrifice, which violated the First, Second and Sixth Commandments.

The Bible shows that the Ten Commandments did not originate with Moses or in his time. Nor were they in any way limited only to the Jews. They were in effect and known long before Moses or a people known as the Jews existed. They are the foundation of God’s laws that show us how to love God (defined by the first four Commandments) and how to love our fellow man (defined by the last six)."

From: Did the Ten Commandments Exist Before Moses?

Also why would God say this about Abraham if there was NO law before Moses:

(Old Testament | Genesis 26:5)

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

This He said about 430 years before Moses.

Daniel Marsh said:

I once heard a wife must be resurrected by her Husband, is that true?

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While there are some members of the LDS faith who believe that a husband will resurrect his wife so that they can enter into the Celestial Kingdom together, this is not a doctrinal teaching of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

Daniel Marsh said:

What books were in JS's personal library?

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Don't forget that JS's grandfather Asael Smith was a Unitarian preacher. He rejected the Trinity and taught that everyone would be saved --- even the wicked.

For years Mormons have accused their critics of lying. They haven't proved it. For instance the temple endowment ceremony is supposed to be secret. The secrets are kept from church members that have never had their endowments. The doctrines are found in the scriptures they say. So the very "sacred" teachings of the endowments can not be revealed in the scriptures that everyone can read.

"The first time a Mormon attends the temple endowment ceremony he/she will be given a new name [usually a Bible name like Peter or Mary or the name of European royalty]. These will supposedly be their names in eternity. The wife must tell her husband her new name, and no one else, as he is supposed to call her up in the resurrection. If he does not call her up she would still resurrect, but not as his wife."
utlm.org

In January 2018 a lot of what was previously taught in the endowment was changed.

An artcle about those changes:

Major changes to Mormon temple ceremony, especially for women

BobRyan said:

BobRyan said: ↑
interesting -- how does this solve the problem you have with the book of Mormon condemning polygamy as abomination for which those tribes "must leave" Israel since God regards the polygamy of David and Solomon as "abomination"??

No matter who wrote BoM.. whether it was taken from Spalding or it "came out of staring in a hat" - either way is fine with me as the basis for the book - I just don't see how this helps you resolve the issue.




Good points - I am not trying to argue that Joseph Smith getting the BoM "from a hat covering a glass stone" is better or worse than getting it from Spalding's manuscript.

My argument was about the "abomination" statement in BoM saying that King David and King Solomon's polygamy was "abomination" before God - right after we saw an LDS member claim that God was just fine with David having polygamy and that is why it was supposedly ok for Joseph Smith.

I notice this point is being dropped like a hot potato.

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Part of my life I was raised in the Sextons and offshoot of King Strang of Beaver Island. Believe me when I say you do not want to be a child of such a group. It is common for older men to have sex with underage girls. The un-chosen male children once they get around 14 to 16 are made to leave the cult, many into the streets. Google lost boys mormon sects to learn about that. The event that gets them kicked out is trying to make it with a sister the Father wants. My Father was murdered going after wife 18.

Here is an example, ""Lost boys" is a term used for young men who have been excommunicated or pressured to leave polygamous Mormon fundamentalist groups such as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS)."

I was chosen as the next prophet and disband the sect.

Like Sarah and Hagar jealously fights are common place. Plural Marriage is a nightmare.

BobRyan said:

BobRyan said: ↑
interesting -- how does this solve the problem you have with the book of Mormon condemning polygamy as abomination for which those tribes "must leave" Israel since God regards the polygamy of David and Solomon as "abomination"??

No matter who wrote BoM.. whether it was taken from Spalding or it "came out of staring in a hat" - either way is fine with me as the basis for the book - I just don't see how this helps you resolve the issue.




Good points - I am not trying to argue that Joseph Smith getting the BoM "from a hat covering a glass stone" is better or worse than getting it from Spalding's manuscript.

My argument was about the "abomination" statement in BoM saying that King David and King Solomon's polygamy was "abomination" before God - right after we saw an LDS member claim that God was just fine with David having polygamy and that is why it was supposedly ok for Joseph Smith.

I notice this point is being dropped like a hot potato.

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CHAPTER 2

Jacob denounces the love of riches, pride, and unchastity—Men may seek riches to help their fellowmen—The Lord commands that no man among the Nephites may have more than one wife—The Lord delights in the chastity of women. About 544–421 B.C.

1 The awords which Jacob, the brother of Nephi, spake unto the people of Nephi, after the death of Nephi:

2 Now, my beloved brethren, I, Jacob, according to the aresponsibility which I am under to God, to bmagnify mine office with csoberness, and that I might drid my garments of your sins, I come up into the temple this day that I might declare unto you the word of God.

3 And ye yourselves know that I have hitherto been diligent in the office of my calling; but I this day am weighed down with much more desire and anxiety for the awelfare of your souls than I have hitherto been.

4 For behold, as yet, ye have been obedient unto the word of the Lord, which I have given unto you.

5 But behold, hearken ye unto me, and know that by the help of the all-powerful Creator of heaven and earth I can tell you concerning your athoughts, how that ye are beginning to labor in sin, which sin appeareth very abominable unto me, yea, and abominable unto God.

6 Yea, it grieveth my soul and causeth me to shrink with shame before the presence of my Maker, that I must testify unto you concerning the wickedness of your hearts.

7 And also it grieveth me that I must use so much aboldness of speech concerning you, before your wives and your children, many of whose feelings are exceedingly tender and bchaste and delicate before God, which thing is pleasing unto God;

8 And it supposeth me that they have come up hither to hear the pleasing aword of God, yea, the word which healeth the wounded soul.

9 Wherefore, it burdeneth my soul that I should be constrained, because of the strict commandment which I have received from God, to aadmonish you according to your crimes, to enlarge the wounds of those who are already wounded, instead of consoling and healing their wounds; and those who have not been wounded, instead of feasting upon the pleasing word of God have daggers placed to pierce their souls and wound their delicate minds.

10 But, notwithstanding the greatness of the task, I must do according to the strict acommands of God, and tell you concerning your wickedness and abominations, in the presence of the pure in heart, and the broken heart, and under the glance of the bpiercing eye of the Almighty God.

11 Wherefore, I must tell you the truth according to the aplainness of the bword of God. For behold, as I inquired of the Lord, thus came the word unto me, saying: Jacob, get thou up into the temple on the morrow, and declare the word which I shall give thee unto this people.

12 And now behold, my brethren, this is the word which I declare unto you, that many of you have begun to search for gold, and for silver, and for all manner of precious ores, in the which this land, which is a bland of promise unto you and to your seed, doth abound most plentifully.

13 And the hand of providence hath smiled upon you most pleasingly, that you have obtained many riches; and because some of you have obtained more abundantly than that of your brethren ye are alifted up in the pride of your hearts, and wear stiff necks and high heads because of the costliness of your apparel, and persecute your brethren because ye suppose that ye are better than they.

14 And now, my brethren, do ye suppose that God justifieth you in this thing? Behold, I say unto you, Nay. But he condemneth you, and if ye persist in these things his judgments must speedily come unto you.

15 O that he would show you that he can pierce you, and with one glance of his aeye he can smite you to the dust!

16 O that he would rid you from this iniquity and abomination. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this apride of your hearts destroy your souls!

17 Think of your abrethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your bsubstance, that cthey may be rich like unto you.

18 But abefore ye seek for briches, seek ye for the ckingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to ado good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken unto you concerning pride; and those of you which have afflicted your neighbor, and persecuted him because ye were proud in your hearts, of the things which God hath given you, what say ye of it?

21 Do ye not suppose that such things are abominable unto him who created all flesh? And the one being is as precious in his sight as the other. And all flesh is of the dust; and for the selfsame end hath he created them, that they should keep his acommandments and glorify him forever.

22 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

24 Behold, David and aSolomon truly had many bwives and concubines, which thing was cabominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a arighteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any aman among you have save it be bone cwife; and concubines he shall have none;

28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the achastity of women. And bwhoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or acursed be the land for their sakes.

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up aseed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and aabominations of their bhusbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit awhoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our afather, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

35 Behold, ye have done agreater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the bstrictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

He is the way said:

While there are some members of the LDS faith who believe that a husband will resurrect his wife so that they can enter into the Celestial Kingdom together, this is not a doctrinal teaching of the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.

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Thank You,
Daniel

Phoebe Ann said:

Don't forget that JS's grandfather Asael Smith was a Unitarian preacher. He rejected the Trinity and taught that everyone would be saved --- even the wicked.

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https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=8816&context=etd

"The plural word whoredoms (used 27 times) is the general Book of Mormon term for unchastity in all of its forms. Abominations is a broader term and covers every thought, deed, and attitude that is offensive to a God who “cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance” (Alma 45:16; D&C 1:31). All mankind is guilty of abominations. Whether we call it sin, iniquity, wickedness, evil, or what have you, it is all abomination; it is all reflective of a carnal mind and, therefore, of ungodliness."
Morality and Marriage in the Book of Mormon | Religious Studies Center

Genesis 26
Easy-to-Read Version
Isaac Lies to Abimelech
26 Now there was a famine. This was like the famine that happened during Abraham’s life. So Isaac went to the town of Gerar, to King Abimelech of the Philistines. 2 The Lord spoke to Isaac and said, “Don’t go down to Egypt. Live in the land that I commanded you to live in. 3 Stay in this land, and I will be with you. I will bless you. I will give you and your family all these lands. I will do what I promised to Abraham your father. 4 I will make your family as many as the stars of heaven, and I will give all these lands to your family. Through your descendants[a] every nation on earth will be blessed. 5 I will do this because your father Abraham obeyed my words and did what I said. He obeyed my commands, my laws, and my rules.”

6 So Isaac settled in Gerar. 7 His wife Rebekah was very beautiful. The men of that place asked Isaac about Rebekah. He said, “She is my sister.” He was afraid to tell them Rebekah was his wife. He was afraid the men would kill him so that they could have her.

8 After Isaac had lived there a long time, Abimelech looked out of his window and saw Isaac and his wife enjoying one another. 9 Abimelech called for Isaac and said, “This woman is your wife. Why did you tell us that she was your sister?”

Isaac said to him, “I was afraid that you would kill me so that you could have her.”

10 Abimelech said, “You have done a bad thing to us. One of our men might have had sex with your wife. Then he would be guilty of a great sin.”

11 So Abimelech gave a warning to all the people. He said, “No one must hurt this man or this woman. If anyone hurts them, they will be killed.”

Isaac Becomes Rich
12 Isaac planted fields in that place, and that year he gathered a great harvest. The Lord blessed him very much. 13 Isaac became rich. He gathered more and more wealth until he became a very rich man. 14 He had many flocks and herds of animals. He also had many slaves. All the Philistines were jealous of him. 15 So they destroyed all the wells that Isaac’s father Abraham and his servants had dug many years before. They filled them with sand. 16 Abimelech said to Isaac, “Leave our country. You have become much more powerful than we are.”

17 So Isaac left that place and camped near the little river of Gerar. He stayed there and lived. 18 Long before this time, Abraham had dug many wells. After he died, the Philistines filled the wells with sand. So Isaac went back and dug those wells again. He gave them the same names his father had given them. 19 Isaac’s servants also dug a well near the little river and found fresh water. 20 But the men who herded sheep in the Valley of Gerar argued with Isaac’s servants. They said, “This water is ours.” So Isaac named that well Esek.[c] He gave it that name because it was the place where they had argued with him.

21 Then Isaac’s servants dug another well. But there was an argument over this well too. So Isaac named that well Sitnah.[d]

22 Isaac moved from there and dug another well. No one came to argue about this well. So Isaac named it Rehoboth.[e] He said, “Now the Lord has found a place for us. We will grow and be successful in this place.”

23 From there Isaac went to Beersheba. 24 The Lord spoke to him that night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham. Don’t be afraid. I am with you, and I will bless you. I will make your family great. I will do this because of my servant Abraham.” 25 So Isaac built an altar and worshiped the Lord in that place. He set up camp there, and his servants dug a well.

26 Abimelech came from Gerar to see Isaac. He brought with him Ahuzzath, his advisor, and Phicol, the commander of his army.

27 Isaac asked, “Why have you come to see me? You were not friendly to me before. You even forced me to leave your country.”

28 They answered, “Now we know that the Lord is with you. We think that we should make an agreement. We want you to make a promise to us. 29 We did not hurt you; now you should promise not to hurt us. We sent you away, but we sent you away in peace. Now it is clear that the Lord has blessed you.”

30 So Isaac gave a party for them. They all ate and drank. 31 Early the next morning each man made a promise and a vow. Then the men left in peace.

32 On that day Isaac’s servants came and told him about the well they had dug. The servants said, “We found water in that well.” 33 So Isaac named it Shibah.[f] And that city is still called Beersheba.[g]

Esau’s Wives
34 When Esau was 40 years old, he married two Hittite women. One was Judith the daughter of Beeri. The other was Basemath the daughter of Elon. 35 These marriages made Isaac and Rebekah very unhappy.

Hrairoo said:

...I have given up trying to find answers from anyone LDS. So, from this point forth, I'll be in this section of the forum acting as an exMormon and an antiMormon in answering any doctrinal questions my fellow Christians may have. As I said, you a
Dr. Robert Millet’s Address to the BYll may continue this conversation if you like. I just wanted to make my own personal statement. Thank you.

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U Mission Prep Club on How to Handle anti-Mormon Criticism: An Unofficial Transcript

Mormon Scholar, Robert Millet, Instructs BYU Students on How to Lie for the Lord – Christian Apologetics Project

Answer the Question They Should Have Asked


I've been here since 2002 and some of the Mormons who have come here follow the advice of Dr. Robert Millet.

He is the way said:

"God’s Word defines sin as “the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4, KJV) or “lawlessness” (New King James Version, NIV). Therefore, “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans 4:15). This is what the Bible clearly says!

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As you said: "God’s Word defines sin as “the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4, KJV)", yes, of course, how could an evil deed be defined as a sin without a Law? Never, but never. Even the seed of God beginning by Seth (Genesis 5-Genealogy) and his descendants or generations until Moses, therefore, before the Law, they were Judged much more by the sin of DESOBEDIENCE than the acts practiced, for did not exist a Law given by God to define what kind of sin had been practiced , except, yeah, except, an act of desobedience of God's instruction or command was the cause of Judgment. So, the Apostle Paul could not say other thing to the Romans, but “where there is no law there is no transgression”, because this is the Spirit of God, God is Just, God is righteous, God is Wise, as did say Moses: Deut.32:v.4 - God is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are Judgment: a God of Truth and without iniquity, Just and Right is He.

He is the way said:

So do we find transgressions of the Ten Commandments described as sinful before Mt. Sinai? Clearly we do.

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Oh, please, the sin or transgression did exist since the fall of Adam for not OBEYING the voice of God, evidently, by the way, "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression". 1Ti.2:v.14. Even the seed of God beginning by Seth (Genesis 5-Genealogy) and his descendants or generations until Moses, therefore, before the Law, they were Judged much more by the sin of desobedience than the acts practiced, sin is a consequence of desobedience, for did not exist a Law given by God to define what kind of sin had been practiced , except, yeah, except, an act of desobedience of God's instruction or command.

Genesis 6:v.1-3&5-8
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every IMAGINATION of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

That said, note that God decided to destroy men and all things He had created. God was the Judge, and is for ever, of course. There was not any Judgment by a Law, I say by the Word of God, but simplesly a DECISION of God, the Creator, to destroy men made in accord the fulfilment of His powerful Word, when He said: grow and multiply.

verse 8 - " But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord". And survived with his family because obeyd God's instructions.
By the way, the same will occur from now on: God will destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 11:v.18

1Cor.3:v.11-14
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for this Day -the Lord's Day - shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

The everlasting Spirit of God is a devouring FIRE.

Was God's Law written on Abraham's heart?

Daniel Marsh said:

Was God's Law written on Abraham's heart?

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No, was not.
What Abraham had in his heart was a strong faith in God, as One unique God, though he dwelt/lived among a polytheistic generation, but he was monotheist, he was a believer, he believed exclusively in the Most High God, Creator of Heavens and earth, and all things. Abraham was a descendant of Noah, therefore, a descendant of God's seed, beginning from Seth, and he had knowledge and believed in God, and in His works, since the creation of all things.


Hebrews 11:v.8-22 and so on:
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

verse 6: - 6 But without faith it is impossible to please God: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Warning, take in mind: Luke 18:v.8
8 Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Humm!

Hrairoo said:

This is a double pronged discussion, because, of course, I'm looking for an explanation from someone LDS. But regarding the second prong dealing with my humility, I don't mind anyone responding.

So, I am troubled by the notion of prophets and general authorities being excused for now disavowed doctrine, like polygamy and the ban of the priesthood for black men, because they are supposedly not perfect and make mistakes, just like anyone. We are told directly that those who might lead us astray are removed from their post before they have a chance to do so.

"The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."

Okay, what about black men and the priesthood? What about the doctrine of the curse of black skin on those who are wicked? Is that really the mind of God? Why change it then? And if it is merely a matter of innocence versus deliberate nefarious motives, then how is an LDS prophet any different than a minister from any other Christian religion? If an LDS prophet means well and has a will to serve God, but mistakenly preaches doctrine that is contrary to the will of the Lord, what is the point of having him? Prophet isn't a fancy word for preacher; it means something specific. And if I cannot trust a prophet or apostle to lead me in 100% the ways of the Lord with everything he says(because he speaks for the Lord, right?), then why not be a Baptist or a Methodist or a Catholic? They're all leading by their own methods of inspiration and a desire to serve Christ, no?

One big issue I have is with humility. Because I believe in it. I believe it is good to be humble and gracious(as opposed to arrogant and selfish). While in the church, I believed in the concept of us being Hands of the Lord, that if we were humble enough to be led, He would direct our doings in this life(through opportunities and the impressions of other people) to the path we needed to walk for our greatest growth and service and that of others. I also believe, it is okay not to have 100% of the answers or the full picture beforehand. Sometimes you don't understand at the current moment "why" but later in life, you look back at the picture and things suddenly make sense. I was right where I was supposed to be and He knew the whole time.

So, in addition to struggling with the imperfection of church leaders ultimately equating to their unworthiness to lead others to righteousness, I also struggle with doubts about the concept of obedience and humility. It is a real issue to try and understand what I want from piety and reconciling my own God-given intellect and right to judge on moral grounds. Am I being led astray by my own pride? Do I want all of the answers(why polygamy then not polygamy? Why racist priesthood doctrine? Why seer stone yet gold plates?)? Or is it okay for me to demand moral consistency from an Almighty?

I apologize if this is not he right place to go for this discussion. Ex-Mormon forums have rules against preaching/theistic talk and LDS forums don't allow debate or any negativity about the church or its leaders. I am alone and conflicted and I need to talk these things out.

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Some say that predicting the future is not what a Biblical prophet is about because a prophet is primarily a truth-speaker. Nevertheless, accurate prediction of the future seems to be what separates a real prophet from all the other opinions that are out there.

Jesus predicted His death at the hands of His enemies. He also predicted His Resurrection. While Jesus is far more than a prophet, this shows that He is at least a prophet.

Isaiah predicted the coming of the Messiah. He predicted that in time the Gentiles would come to understand the truth of monotheism, that there is only one God. At the time, that must have seemed more radical than predicting the Jewish Messiah.

Malachi predicted the ministry of John the Baptist when he said that Elijah would pave the way for the Messiah.



In contrast, what did Joseph Smith predict? He did die in Federal custody, but if he predicted his own death, I've never heard of it. Neither Joseph Smith nor any of his successors have given us any accurate predictions, whether warnings or otherwise.