The indwelling presence

Carl Emerson · Apr 17, 2023

Hi there,

I am keen for some members to respond to this thread who are strong in biblical theology - I am not looking for denominational voices.

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
Revelation 3:
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
Revelation 5:6
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

I raise this issue because some feel that without the Gifts of the Spirit in operation one is not ready to go out into the world with the gospel.

There is some truth in this because Jesus required the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they had received the baptism in the spirit.

This is also a strong argument for continuance as surely we in this age are still called to go out empowered with the gospel.

However I believe we have underestimated the impact of receiving the Holy Spirit at rebirth.

These seven Spirits of God should surely be manifest through us regardless of gifts that are given to some.

d taylor · Apr 17, 2023

-

Jesus has the seven spirits of God. Believers have The Holy Spirit.

HTacianas · Apr 17, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Hi there,

I am keen for some members to respond to this thread who are strong in biblical theology - I am not looking for denominational voices.

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

Revelation 1:4
John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,

Revelation 3:
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.

Revelation 4:5
Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;

Revelation 5:6
And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

I raise this issue because some feel that without the Gifts of the Spirit in operation one is not ready to go out into the world with the gospel.

There is some truth in this because Jesus required the disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they had received the baptism in the spirit.

This is also a strong argument for continuance as surely we in this age are still called to go out empowered with the gospel.

However I believe we have underestimated the impact of receiving the Holy Spirit at rebirth.

These seven Spirits of God should surely be manifest through us regardless of gifts that are given to some.

Back up for a second and tell us what you mean by being born again and re-birth.

Carl Emerson · Apr 17, 2023

Jesus said one has to be born again...

John 3:3
Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:7
Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Maria Billingsley · Apr 18, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
These seven Spirits of God should surely be manifest through us regardless of gifts that are given to some.

There is only One Spirit and His character is represented by the number "seven", a Jewish symbol of perfection, completeness and wholeness.
Blessings.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
There is only One Spirit and His character is represented by the number "seven", a Jewish symbol of perfection, completeness and wholeness.
Blessings.

Such is the mystery - three in one for the trinity - seven in one for the Holy Spirit.

sawdust · Apr 18, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

The human spirit.

We are born body and soul which is why we cannot comprehend the things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:14) The new birth is the Spirit begetting our human spirit so we become spirit, soul and body. (cmp. 1 Thessalonians 5:23)

When Jesus breathed on the disciples, it was an empowering (like the OT prophets received) to sustain them until the day of Pentecost when they would be baptized in the Spirit for the Spirit wasn't given to believers (as in baptism) until after Christ was glorified. (John 7:39)

It certainly was a two part process prior to Pentecost (ie. born again then later baptized) but whether it happens in two parts today? I don't know.

One receives a spiritual gift as part of the baptism as well as the indwelling (bodily) of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19), sealing (Ephesians 4:30) and the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). The fist two cannot be lost but the filling can be which is why we are commanded to be filled. The filling is the power sphere, sort of a DUI but in the positive sense. The only spirit one should be drunk with.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2023

sawdust said:
The human spirit.

We are born body and soul which is why we cannot comprehend the things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:14) The new birth is the Spirit begetting our human spirit so we become spirit, soul and body. (cmp. 1 Thessalonians 5:23)

When Jesus breathed on the disciples, it was an empowering (like the OT prophets received) to sustain them until the day of Pentecost when they would be baptized in the Spirit for the Spirit wasn't given to believers (as in baptism) until after Christ was glorified. (John 7:39)

It certainly was a two part process prior to Pentecost (ie. born again then later baptized) but whether it happens in two parts today? I don't know.

One receives a spiritual gift as part of the baptism as well as the indwelling (bodily) of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19), sealing (Ephesians 4:30) and the filling of the Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). The fist two cannot be lost but the filling can be which is why we are commanded to be filled. The filling is the power sphere, sort of a DUI but in the positive sense. The only spirit one should be drunk with.

There is a whole gaggle of verses that confirm humans having a human spirit - here is a couple...

Psalm 146

In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
On that very day his plans perish.

Psalm 31:5
Into Your hand I entrust my spirit; You have redeemed me, Lord, God of truth.

And Luke 1... Mary speaking

“My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has had regard for the humble state of His bond-servant;
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed.

sawdust · Apr 18, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
There is a whole gaggle of verses that confirm humans having a human spirit - here is a couple...

Psalm 146

In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
On that very day his plans perish.

Psalm 31:5
Into Your hand I entrust my spirit; You have redeemed me, Lord, God of truth.

And Luke 1... Mary speaking

“My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has had regard for the humble state of His bond-servant;
For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed.

Yes, believers have spirits, unbelievers do not. This is why you must be born from above. Spirit begets spirit. (John 3:3) The natural man (psuchikos man = body and soul only 1Cor.2:14) does not have a human spirit ergo, no capacity to comprehend spiritual matters.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2023

sawdust said:
Yes, believers have spirits, unbelievers do not. This is why you must be born from above. Spirit begets spirit. (John 3:3) The natural man (psuchikos man = body and soul only 1Cor.2:14) does not have a human spirit ergo, no capacity to comprehend spiritual matters.

The scripture would not seem to agree with you.

Here we read about mankind in general...

All humans have spirits.

Ecc 3

16 Furthermore, I have seen under the sun that in the place of justice there is wickedness and in the place of righteousness there is wickedness. 17 I said to myself, “God will judge the righteous and the wicked,” for a time for every matter and for every deed is there. 18 I said to myself regarding the sons of mankind, “God is testing them in order for them to see that they are as animals, they to themselves.” 19 For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. 21 Who knows that the spirit of the sons of mankind ascends upward and the spirit of the animal descends downward to the earth? 22 I have seen that nothing is better than when a person is happy in his activities, for that is his lot. For who will bring him to see what will occur after him?

sawdust · Apr 18, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
19 For the fate of the sons of mankind and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath, and there is no advantage for mankind over animals, for all is futility. 20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Verses 19 and 20 should have given you a clue that it is speaking of life in general not specifically about the human spirit as animals are not spiritual creatures nor do our spirits come from the dust they are begotten of God the Holy Spirit.

Carl Emerson · Apr 18, 2023

sawdust said:
Verses 19 and 20 should have given you a clue that it is speaking of life in general not specifically about the human spirit as animals are not spiritual creatures nor do our spirits come from the dust they are begotten of God the Holy Spirit.

The term "Sons of Mankind' means all humans and verse 21 acknowledges they all have a Spirit.

Anyway this is rather a side issue and not the intended focus of the OP.

Thanks for your participation.

sawdust · Apr 19, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
The term "Sons of Mankind' means all humans and verse 21 acknowledges they all have a Spirit.

Anyway this is rather a side issue and not the intended focus of the OP.

Thanks for your participation.

Hardly a side issue when you asked what do we receive at the new birth but if you think you have the same breath and fate as an animal, so be it.

Nice chatting with you.

Carl Emerson · Apr 19, 2023

sawdust said:
Hardly a side issue when you asked what do we receive at the new birth but if you think you have the same breath and fate as an animal, so be it.

Who said that ??????

sawdust · Apr 19, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Who said that ??????

You did in your OP.

Carl Emerson said:
That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

Carl Emerson · Apr 19, 2023

sawdust said:
You did in your OP.

Really... - read it again or quote me accurately please.

Carl Emerson · Apr 19, 2023

Back on track and further folks respond to the OP please.

ViaCrucis · Apr 19, 2023

The Holy Spirit brings with Him faith, it is the Spirit who creates and works faith in us. When we are regenerated we now have faith.

The old man, dead in sin and a slave to the passions of the flesh, has no faith. In fact the old man wants nothing to do with God, "There is no one righteous, not even one ... there is none who seeks after God". And elsewhere we read "you were dead in your trespasses".

The new man, which is created by the grace of God is the work of the Spirit, the new man has faith, the new man is alive because he is alive by the Spirit, alive with faith.

When we entered into baptismal font we entered unclean, dead, and full of every wickedness; but when we were brought up out of the water we were raised up anew with Christ, born again of God, of water and the Spirit, cleansed by the washing of water with the word. Having, therefore, been buried with Christ, we have died with Christ, dying to sin and to the old self, and raised up with Christ to new life, to share in His life.

Therefore the old man, Adam, has died; and now a new man in Christ, lives.

While we remain in these mortal bodies, there will be the conflict between the old man and the new. The work of our being conformed to the image of Christ, our sanctification, will be a life-long work of God. But we have been promised that what God began, God will complete on the Day of the Lord Jesus, so that at the resurrection we shall at long last be complete.

To be born again means nothing less than that the old man has been brought under the waters of regeneration, and put to death; and rising up in his place is a new man created in Christ Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

sawdust · Apr 20, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Really... - read it again or quote me accurately please.

Carl Emerson said:
That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth???

That's your name in the quote. You can disagree with me if you don't think the Spirit is begetting a human spirit but to say I misquoted you and have not answered your question is incorrect.

Carl Emerson · Apr 20, 2023

sawdust said:
That's your name in the quote. You can disagree with me if you don't think the Spirit is begetting a human spirit but to say I misquoted you and have not answered your question is incorrect.

I am sure the readers will decide that...

Have a great day....

The indwelling presence

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