The Importance of a Multiplicity of Heavens

[Berserk]

George Whitefield, John Wesley led the great Methodist awakening in England that soon spread to America. Whitefield later became critical of Wesley, and so, the founder of Methodism was once asked whether he expected to see George Whitefield in Heaven. Wesley replied, "Oh no" and then paused before continuing, "George will be so far ahead of me in Heaven that I doubt I'll ever catch up to him to renew our fellowship."

Many Christians act as if there is just one Heaven and it resembles a spiritual Disney World in the sky. You get your ticket punched by walking down the aisle and getting "saved," and then you enter through the pearly gates and, like every other resident, you get to enjoy the "rides" (sites and activities). Great saints may have merited larger, grander "mansions" than you and other greater rewards than you, but hey--all residents get to bask in a bliss that thrills their soul and to get to be inspired by Christ's awesome loving presence.

This thread will refute this simplistic pollyanna caricature in favor of the more biblically sound concept of spiritual levels of Heaven or, put differently, a multiplicity of Heavens. But let's get started with these 3 questions:

(1) If selfish, gossipy, immature Christians are rubbing shoulders with great saints in Heaven, what would prevent this mixture of great flaws and saintliness from poisoning the atmosphere?
(2) Does this problem cry out for an intermediary realm of purification like Purgatory?
(3) If God just removes these character flaws at death to ensure that "nothing unclean will enter it (Rev. 21:27), " would not free will be sacrificed in the service of heavenly harmony?

 

[Der Alte]

...

George Whitefield, John Wesley led the great Methodist awakening in England that soon spread to America. Whitefield later became critical of Wesley, and so, the founder of Methodism was once asked whether he expected to see George Whitefield in Heaven. Wesley replied, "Oh no" and then paused before continuing, "George will be so far ahead of me in Heaven that I doubt I'll ever catch up to him to renew our fellowship."
Many Christians act as if there is just one Heaven and it resembles a spiritual Disney World in the sky. You get your ticket punched by walking down the aisle and getting "saved," and then you enter through the pearly gates and, like every other resident, you get to enjoy the "rides" (sites and activities). Great saints may have merited larger, grander "mansions" than you and other greater rewards than you, but hey--all residents get to bask in a bliss that thrills their soul and to get to be inspired by Christ's awesome loving presence.
This thread will refute this simplistic pollyanna caricature in favor of the more biblically sound concept of spiritual levels of Heaven or, put differently, a multiplicity of Heavens. But let's get started with these 3 questions:
(1) If selfish, gossipy, immature Christians are rubbing shoulders with great saints in Heaven, what would prevent this mixture of great flaws and saintliness from poisoning the atmosphere?
(2) Does this problem cry out for an intermediary realm of purification like Purgatory?
(3) If God just removes these character flaws at death to ensure that "nothing unclean will enter it (Rev. 22:27), " would not free will be sacrificed in the service of heavenly harmony?

I searched my Bible from cover to cover and I did not find the books of Whitfield or Wesley anywhere. The only scripture you mention is Rev 22:27 but in my Bible Revelation ends at vs. 21.
Rev 22:11 says

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. ​

Ten more vss. then the end. No more death, no more salvation, no more forgiveness only "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still..."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

George Whitefield, John Wesley led the great Methodist awakening in England that soon spread to America. Whitefield later became critical of Wesley, and so, the founder of Methodism was once asked whether he expected to see George Whitefield in Heaven. Wesley replied, "Oh no" and then paused before continuing, "George will be so far ahead of me in Heaven that I doubt I'll ever catch up to him to renew our fellowship."

Many Christians act as if there is just one Heaven and it resembles a spiritual Disney World in the sky. You get your ticket punched by walking down the aisle and getting "saved," and then you enter through the pearly gates and, like every other resident, you get to enjoy the "rides" (sites and activities). Great saints may have merited larger, grander "mansions" than you and other greater rewards than you, but hey--all residents get to bask in a bliss that thrills their soul and to get to be inspired by Christ's awesome loving presence.

This thread will refute this simplistic pollyanna caricature in favor of the more biblically sound concept of spiritual levels of Heaven or, put differently, a multiplicity of Heavens. But let's get started with these 3 questions:

(1) If selfish, gossipy, immature Christians are rubbing shoulders with great saints in Heaven, what would prevent this mixture of great flaws and saintliness from poisoning the atmosphere?
(2) Does this problem cry out for an intermediary realm of purification like Purgatory?
(3) If God just removes these character flaws at death to ensure that "nothing unclean will enter it (Rev. 22:27), " would not free will be sacrificed in the service of heavenly harmony?

Welcome to CF. I believe this what we all look forward to "Christ's awesome loving presence." Blessings

 

[Berserk]

Der Alte" "I searched my Bible from cover to cover and I did not find the books of Whitfield or Wesley anywhere."
I guess I should not have assumed that a German would have heard of the 17th century Great Awakening initially spearheaded by Wesley and Whitefield. Nor did I want to confuse those who don't know their Bibles by quoting sources that aren't in their Bibles!
Der lAlte: "The only scripture you mention is Rev 21:27."
And that's the verse I quote. Reread the OP.
To get intelligent discussion started, I should point out 2 facts:
(1) Paul accepts the traditional Jewish view that Paradise is located in the 3rd Heaven (2 Cor. 12:2, 4).
"Paradise is the preferred initial destination of the redeemed dead (Luke 23:42-43). So Paul adopts the traditional Jewish view of a multiplicity of Heavens? Have you ever asked yourself what the first and 2nd Heavens are like? A future post will describe the Jewish view of the nature of the 2nd Heaven.

(2) The Greek word "mone" in John 14:3 is mistranslated "mansion" when in fact it means "dwelling place" ithe sense of "night stop" or temporary "resting place" for a traveler like the underlying Aramaic word ("ona") it translates (so Raymond Brown's Commentary on John, vol. 2, pp. 618-619). So the believer's initial destination is merely temporary, thus implying various levels of Heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

George Whitefield, John Wesley led the great Methodist awakening in England that soon spread to America. Whitefield later became critical of Wesley, and so, the founder of Methodism was once asked whether he expected to see George Whitefield in Heaven. Wesley replied, "Oh no" and then paused before continuing, "George will be so far ahead of me in Heaven that I doubt I'll ever catch up to him to renew our fellowship."

Many Christians act as if there is just one Heaven and it resembles a spiritual Disney World in the sky. You get your ticket punched by walking down the aisle and getting "saved," and then you enter through the pearly gates and, like every other resident, you get to enjoy the "rides" (sites and activities). Great saints may have merited larger, grander "mansions" than you and other greater rewards than you, but hey--all residents get to bask in a bliss that thrills their soul and to get to be inspired by Christ's awesome loving presence.

This thread will refute this simplistic pollyanna caricature in favor of the more biblically sound concept of spiritual levels of Heaven or, put differently, a multiplicity of Heavens. But let's get started with these 3 questions:

(1) If selfish, gossipy, immature Christians are rubbing shoulders with great saints in Heaven, what would prevent this mixture of great flaws and saintliness from poisoning the atmosphere?

There won't be any selfish, gossipy, immature Christians in heaven. We'll be perfect, just like the rest of the saints who have come before us who, in their mortal lives, were selfish, gossipy, and immature too.

(2) Does this problem cry out for an intermediary realm of purification like Purgatory?

Roman Catholics would certainly say yes. As a Lutheran I'd answer no, when this mortal body is laid to rest then all the sinfulness that lay in my members is buried with it. And then when Christ returns in glory and this body is raised up, transformed, and this mortal puts on immortality and this perishable puts on the imperishable the body will no longer be stained with sin and death but alive by the full quickening power of God. And then we shall dwell forever in the Age to Come when God makes all things new.

After all "heaven" is just the waiting place between this life and the life of the Age to Come.

(3) If God just removes these character flaws at death to ensure that "nothing unclean will enter it (Rev. 21:27), " would not free will be sacrificed in the service of heavenly harmony?

The will is not free because it can sin. The will that sins is in bondage and captivity. That's why the illusion of true freedom of the will is just that, an illusion. For Luther rightly notes that neither you or I could know anything of Christ or believe in Him as our Lord and Savior unless it were given to us by the Holy Spirit through the Gospel. For St. Paul has written that we are saved by grace alone through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God and not of our works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and in Romans 10 says that the way God works and creates faith is through the Gospel, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17). Which is why we must always look outside of ourselves and never inward, looking to Christ and abiding in Christ alone by faith. And "whomever the Son sets free is free indeed", for "where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom". Apart from Christ there is no freedom.

In Revelation 21:27 it isn't talking about heaven, it's talking about the life of the Age to Come after the renewal of creation. And since we will have been raised up, glorified, for Paul says that we await from heaven our Savior, Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body (Philippians 3:21) then all sin, all death, and all traces of it shall be no longer.

I pray that if there are "tiers" in that future life (though I deny such ideas as mere desire of the old man still wanting glory for himself in his sinfulness), that I be found in the lowest and lowliest parts. I pray that God crucify the old man who hungers for glory and crowns, day by day. That I may abide only in Christ and His sufferings.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Berserk]

The value of our moral decisions is directly proportionate to our incentive to make wrong choices. Once this incentive is removed, our choices are no longer free in any worthwhile sense of the word. That is the morally devastating implication of the belief that death brings the believer a glorified body which no longer retains its incentive to sin. Indeed, why would Satan and his angelic minions "fall" if they lacked an incentive to sin? No, moral tests and challenges must not cease at death if we are to be more than deterministic robots. And as you will see, Scripture implies a continuation of such challenges in Heaven. what God surpremely values is freely offered worship and service from souls who have strong incentives to choose otherwise, but resist the temptation to do so.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The value of our moral decisions is directly proportionate to our incentive to make wrong choices. Once this incentive is removed, our choices are no longer free in any worthwhile sense of the word. That is the morally devastating implication of the belief that death brings the believer a glorified body which no longer retains its incentive to sin. Indeed, why would Satan and his angelic minions "fall" if they lacked an incentive to sin? No, moral tests and challenges must not cease at death if we are to be more than deterministic robots. And as you will see, Scripture implies a continuation of such challenges in Heaven. what God surpremely values is freely offered worship and service from souls who have strong incentives to choose otherwise, but resist the temptation to do so.

If you need an incentive to do good works then you're not doing good works, you're just adding sin on top of sin. And those very good works will condemn you on the Day of Judgment.

Also, we don't receive a glorified body when we die. Our bodies are glorified when Christ returns to judge the quick and the dead and we are resurrected.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Berserk]

ViaCrucis: "If you need an incentive to do good works then you're not doing good works, you're just adding sin on top of sin. And those very good works will condemn you on the Day of Judgment."

Obviously, you have never taken a basic course in Philosophy. Decisions can be coerced or programed, random, or free.
(1) A transformed nature that guarantees righteous choices produces only programed or predetermined choices. God does not value praise and worship from robots! Such praise would amount to God praising Himself!
(2) Service with no incentive for good or evil would involve random choices of no moral value.
(3) Service that overcomes contrary incentives requires moral effort, growth, and victory and is neither determined or random, but rather free. That is the service God desires. Your static Heaven rules out such contrary incentives and is therefore morally worthless to God.

Satan and his angels obviously had a strong incentive to rebel, an incentive that God valued and therefore created them that way so they could be free. They just made the wrong choice.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The value of our moral decisions is directly proportionate to our incentive to make wrong choices. Once this incentive is removed, our choices are no longer free in any worthwhile sense of the word. That is the morally devastating implication of the belief that death brings the believer a glorified body which no longer retains its incentive to sin. Indeed, why would Satan and his angelic minions "fall" if they lacked an incentive to sin? No, moral tests and challenges must not cease at death if we are to be more than deterministic robots. And as you will see, Scripture implies a continuation of such challenges in Heaven. what God surpremely values is freely offered worship and service from souls who have strong incentives to choose otherwise, but resist the temptation to do so.

Are you suggesting the tempter will be in heaven ?

I ask because we know that God will never tempt anyone.

If we are raised in Glorified bodies finally perfected and Christ like, then self temptation will be eliminated because the unredeemed nature will be no more.

 

[ViaCrucis]

ViaCrucis: "If you need an incentive to do good works then you're not doing good works, you're just adding sin on top of sin. And those very good works will condemn you on the Day of Judgment."

Obviously, you have never taken a basic course in Philosophy. Decisions can be coerced or programed, random, or free.
(1) A transformed nature that guarantees righteous choices produces only programed or predetermined choices. God does not value praise and worship from robots! Such praise would amount to God praising Himself!
(2) Service with no incentive for good or evil would involve random choices of no moral value.
(3) Service that overcomes contrary incentives requires moral effort, growth, and victory and is neither determined or random, but rather free. That is the service God desires. Your static Heaven rules out such contrary incentives and is therefore morally worthless to God.

Satan and his angels obviously had a strong incentive to rebel, an incentive that God valued and therefore created them that way so they could be free. They just made the wrong choice.

Your neighbor is hungry, feed him. Your neighbor is thirsty, give her water to drink.

That's why you and I are supposed to do good works. It's not for brownie points, it's not for glory, it's not that we might benefit. It's that we are supposed to love our neighbor as Christ our God has commanded.

What other "incentive" do you need other than there is someone who needs to be loved, God says we should love them, so you love them. That's freedom, anything else is slavery.

Anything else is sin and lawlessness.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Berserk]

(1) We now turn to our first text implying different heavenly levels or spiritual planes:

"In my Father's House are many [temporary] resting places (Greek: "mone"). If it were not so. would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place, I will come again and take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also (John 14:2-3)."

To unpack this verse it is useful to consult the interpretation of an early church father, Origen, who grasps the subtleties of Greek nuance. In secular Greek usage, "mone" means "resting places" in the sense of "night stops" or "inns." As applied to the afterlife, it means "a place of instruction" or "a school for souls" in "Paradise" where light is shed on postmortem matters that we only "see through a glass darkly" in earth life (so Origen, De principiis 2:9:6--c. 220 AD). This postmortem schooling prepares believers for "the kingdom of heaven" and thus for the upward ascent through the "levels" of "the heavens" until we reach "the place" referred to by Jesus in John 14:3: "...so that where I am there these may be also (so Origen)."
Jesus makes it clear that the groupings in the many temporary "resting places" are based on the principle that like attracts like: "With the judgment you pronounce you will be judged and the measure you dish out will be dished out back to you (Matt. 7:2)." In that sense we establish the standard by which we are judged and our heavenly quality of life mirrors our character and desires in earthly life. In Heaven, communication will be telepathic because we will lack physical vocal cords. So the principle that like attracts like will develop through the exposure of our secret thoughts and motives to other souls:
""Nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered, and nothing secret that will not be revealed (Luke 12:2)."

My next planned post will compare this picture of heavenly life with that of Paul.