The Imperative Justification & Sanctification Thread

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

And here it goes ... lets unpack that soteriology. What do you believe about salvation? How does it take place or unfold in our lives, where the individual life encounters the completed work of the risen Saviour? Or does the Saviour have further work He needs to do to complete our salvation? What role does the Holy Spirit play in all this? Where does human volition enter the picture (assuming you believe in such a thing -- Moriah does not but others might)? How do we come to repentance and faith? What forms the basis of our assurance of salvation -- the imputed righteousness of Christ to cover our sins or the imparted righteousness of Christ to empower us to live His way? If we don't have the latter do we lose the former? Bes the imputed righteousness or God's forgiveness for our past sins only? If so, how could that be if all our sins bes future when He hung on the cross?

These questions bes just to get you started or at least chewing over the subject. Moriah would love to hear what everyone here thinks and believes about these things and related things. Anything soteriological -- justification & sanctification, law & grace, etc. -- post what you believe about it here, please!! And share the scriptures you use to substantiate or reason from, and the logic and reasoning behind your thinking so others can see how you arrived at it.
AND, remember to play nice, we all have good things to share on this subject and we can all learn something from each other!

 

[Sophia7]

Good topic, Moriah. I'll probably post some more thoughts when I have time. I look forward to reading everyone's viewpoints. There is so much dissension on this issue both within Adventism and outside of it. One of my biggest problems with Traditional/Historic Adventism, though, is its emphasis on sinless perfection, salvation by sanctification, last-generation theology, or whatever other terms may be used for it.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

One of my biggest problems with Traditional/Historic Adventism, though, is its emphasis on sinless perfection, salvation by sanctification, last-generation theology, or whatever other terms may be used for it.

Ditto that. Moriah calls it "justification by sanctification theology." (Apt descriptor, thinksy not?) That massive iceberg of disaster pretty much single-handedly shipwrecked its faith many years ago ... nothing really to be done about that now, but it would be remiss if it did not spend itself to exhaustion attempting to ensure no one ELSE gets ensnared and dragged to utter ruin by that toxic stronghold.

Looking forward to some good discussions here when we have time to get in depth.

 

[StormyOne]

I believe when humans fell, The Creator stepped in and "saved" humankind because of his love.... just as a loving parent would step in and save a child who had fallen....

We simply must believe that He has already saved us, and will make us "right" with him.....

 

[AndrewK788]

I believe when humans fell, The Creator stepped in and "saved" humankind because of his love.... just as a loving parent would step in and save a child who had fallen....

We simply must believe that He has already saved us, and will make us "right" with him.....

I agree.

 

[Telaquapacky]

The biggest problem I have with soteriology debates is that people are looking for the bottom line- "Whatta I gotta do to get saved?" "What's the cost of that ticket to heaven?" Once you start asking the price, doesn't matter to me if it's paid for or not, cheap or expensive, all you want is a ticket. Once you know that, all ya's gotta do is the minimum required. Where's the relationship in that- the relationship we claim is the basis of our salvation?

There came a point in my Christian life when I stopped worrying about whether I was saved or not. All I cared about was, now that I have this opportunity to have a friendship with the King of the Universe, and I find out what a wonderful Person He is, all I care about any more is how to make my Friend happy and how to enjoy hanging out with Him. He's never asked anything of me that was not for my best. But I can't speak for anyone else, because what's between Him and me is between just us. It doesn't apply to anyone else.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The biggest problem I have with soteriology debates is that people are looking for the bottom line- "Whatta I gotta do to get saved?" "What's the cost of that ticket to heaven?" Once you start asking the price, doesn't matter to me if it's paid for or not, cheap or expensive, all you want is a ticket. Once you know that, all ya's gotta do is the minimum required. Where's the relationship in that- the relationship we claim is the basis of our salvation?

You have a valid point there. But for some, honestly, it bes not about finding the "bare minimum bottom line" but about being able to actually experience the peace and rest promised in Christ, the yoke that bes EASY and burden that bes LIGHT because they have been smothered and tortured for years with an overburdened conscience about everything to the point where their souls literally bes well nigh unto spiritual death. And the pain and torment they suffer bes NOT helped ANY by them finger-wagging, fault-finding, yoke-piling perfectionism advocates, particularly the sort that want to turn involuntary and unconscious processes -- which cannot be consciously grabbed in a split second nor controlled by merely "choosing" to -- into matters of conscious accountability. For some it bes not about finding the golden ticket but about finding the reality promised in Romans 8:1 and finding something what actually WORKS to transform them instead of always being told it bes up to themselves -- up to the same sinful selves that got themselves in such a pickle of sin to begin with.

The sinless perfection deception has robbed entire generations, ironically, of the very basis necessary for growth in grace, experience in walking in the Spirit, and the stable foundation of a Christian life: the unshakable assurance of the completed work of Jesus Christ as all-sufficient in itself to secure their salvation and effect their ongoing, irreversible reconciliation to God. Without that assurance firmly and fixedly in place, one WILL be left ever scrambling for a "ticket" at ANY cost through the torments of an illusory "yo-yo salvation" and the impossibility of navigating the spiritual paradox of becoming increasingly and keenly aware of the depths of their own sinfulness the closer they come in relationship and the more they behold a sinless and perfect Saviour. Say nothing of the utter futility in attempting to become, as a sinner, "sincere" enough to have one's repentance "take" once and for all and spirit oneself away to that mythical land of sinless living. Christ does promise true rest for the soul and a yoke that bes easy with a burden what bes light -- and the unique twistings and torturings of the sinless perfection dogma produces anything BUT that ... ticket or none.

 

[AndrewK788]

I'm an SDA and I always will be. I believe there are alot of wonderful Christian people in the SDA church.

But with that disclaimer said, I must be honest and say after going 4 years in an SDA academy I felt the weight of a works-oriented salvation on my shoulders. Now it was never called that, naturally, and it was always said grace by faith. Which is true, but when people say one thing and act another it is very confusing and stressful to teenagers trying to find their place with God.

I can say with confidence that I have found it and I am confident in my Savior. I just wish we would get our act together and stop making our youth believe that anything they do can ever impress God. Because it can't.

Turn to Christ and accept Him, and that is all you need to do. I'm not saying I believe the Sabbath and such to be void, not at all, but I certainly have a different perspective on it than what some TSDA's may say. But that's a whole different discussion...

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Andrew that bes what Moriah found to be most distressing about it all, that it constantly bes presented as a deeper and better understanding of grace than, well, just plain grace -- but the end result bes to bring one under bondage to the law again, relating to it rather than to a merciful Saviour who knows our shortcomings and weaknesses, who sympathizes with our struggles and falterings and confusion, who took our sin upon Himself once for ALL time, ALL of that sin, and LEFT it behind in the grave. The whole "if you bes not obeying God you bes not saved" Gordian knot becomes utterly ruinous even under the best intentions -- and why? Because it operates from an irresolute paradox. It postulates that one must obey TO be saved, and this bes backwards, going back to Tela's notion of looking for the "ticket" again. The only certain truth here being this: IF one bes saved, one will DESIRE to obey God. That does not mean one will get it right all the time, but it does mean one will be kept in right relation to HIM and as a result, experience conviction, awareness, repentance, insight, training and growth. At no time does this process end, though, because as long as we have fallen flesh we will be subject to its frailties, impulses, propensities, ingrained patterns, desires, etc. Thus one can walk in the Spirit, not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, for -- lets say -- 15 years as a celibate honoring God with his virginity, and then out of the blue have an overwhelming temptation of lust arise biologically and fall as if he had never had 15 years of walking in the Spirit beforehand. And guess what? God forgives him anyway. Our ultimate and final deliverance from the presence and power of sin entirely will occur only when "this mortal puts on immortality" at the resurrection.

 

[Sophia7]

I'm an SDA and I always will be. I believe there are alot of wonderful Christian people in the SDA church.

But with that disclaimer said, I must be honest and say after going 4 years in an SDA academy I felt the weight of a works-oriented salvation on my shoulders. Now it was never called that, naturally, and it was always said grace by faith. Which is true, but when people say one thing and act another it is very confusing and stressful to teenagers trying to find their place with God.

I can say with confidence that I have found it and I am confident in my Savior. I just wish we would get our act together and stop making our youth believe that anything they do can ever impress God. Because it can't.

Turn to Christ and accept Him, and that is all you need to do. I'm not saying I believe the Sabbath and such to be void, not at all, but I certainly have a different perspective on it than what some TSDA's may say. But that's a whole different discussion...

Hubby and I were talking today about the fact that so many kids who go through the academy system are taught legalism and end up leaving the Adventist Church and often Christianity as well. It hurts the local churches, too, to have an absence of kids in that age group. During most of my high-school years, I was the only Adventist kid my age in church, and most of the kids that I knew who went away to academy eventually quit going to church. I used to go to a Baptist youth group because my home church didn't offer anything for youth, and during Sabbath School I helped in Cradle Roll because I hardly ever had a class for my age group.

To me, it just seems wrong to send kids away from their parents when they're 14 or 15, to a place where they are subjected to peer pressure all the time because they live with their peers. I didn't go to academy, for which I am very thankful, but I did go to an Adventist college, and even some of the rules there I thought were arbitrary and legalistic. Some people think that their kids will be sheltered from "the world" at Adventist schools, but the world is there, too, and parents aren't.

We considered a job at an academy once, but in the end we turned it down because we didn't want to be in charge of policing kids to make sure they didn't have sex. That was the major duty of the job (although they didn't describe it in those terms). At that school, boys and girls couldn't even talk to each other or be within a certain distance of each other unless they were outside in an open area that was visible from all of the windows on campus. I found that ridiculous, and I would never want to pay the exorbitant tuition rates that they charge now to send my children to that kind of environment.

I'm relieved, now that we're not in the ministry anymore, that that won't be an issue for us when our kids get to that age because we wouldn't have even considered sending them to a boarding academy even though a lot of people would have expected us to.

 

[AndrewK788]

Wow Sophia, and I thought I had it bad at my academy. The one you mentioned though for turning down a job...it wasn't Laurelbrook by any chance was it? Or Heritage? I have friends that went to both of those schools and I have heard quite the stories...

 

[Sophia7]

Wow Sophia, and I thought I had it bad at my academy. The one you mentioned though for turning down a job...it wasn't Laurelbrook by any chance was it? Or Heritage? I have friends that went to both of those schools and I have heard quite the stories...

No, it was a different one, but I'm sure a lot of them were similar. Another thing that annoyed me was that students weren't allowed to wear shorts in the cafeteria, even though the air-conditioning had broken down when we were visiting there, and it was probably 90-some degrees outside. However, the principal was wearing shorts when he took us to lunch there.

 

[AndrewK788]

No, it was a different one, but I'm sure a lot of them were similar. Another thing that annoyed me was that students weren't allowed to wear shorts in the cafeteria, even though the air-conditioning had broken down when we were visiting there, and it was probably 90-some degrees outside. However, the principal was wearing shorts when he took us to lunch there.

Oh it gets better. On gymnastic trips when we stopped at gas stations they always made a fuss so we wouldn't get drinks with caffeine. Then I saw the principle who was driving load up on Mtn Dew and Pepsi...

Anyway, back on topic! lol Sorry I kind of started derailing this one.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Why do people ALWAYS associate "mounds and mounds of stupid senseless rules hypocritically enforced making everyone miserable" with "a good solid Christian environment". What kind of twisted message does that present to the world about how folks view their faith and their God???

 

[AndrewK788]

Why do people ALWAYS associate "mounds and mounds of stupid senseless rules hypocritically enforced making everyone miserable" with "a good solid Christian environment". What kind of twisted message does that present to the world about how folks view their faith and their God???

A false one I'm afraid.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

A Bible verse for rule-mongers:
[bible]Colossians 2:16-23[/bible]


Note esp. verses 20-23:
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using); after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

WILL worship, eh? As in, "everything depends upon the right action of ..." ??? :o

Commandments and doctrines of men. Hmmm ... seems to Moriah it has heard plenty from the SDA church teaching against that, right?
Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men...

oh but that only matters when comparing Sabbathkeeping to Sunday church-going. RIIIIIIIGGGHHT.