THE IMMORTALITY OF THE SOUL by Samuele Bacchiocchi

[BobRyan]

I differ somewhat from the traditional talking-points on this subject.

I believe in "Soul sleep" - as we find it in 1Thess 4 and John 11. Not "soul annihilation". The Adventist doctrine states that we believe in soul sleep at the first death and that it is only the second death that causes the death of the soul such that it no longer exists.

The claim that the components cannot be spoken of "Seperately" as if one is killed while the other is not killed is not consistent with Matthew 10.

Matthew 10:28 "28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Looking at the talking points above they appear to paint themselves into a corner - and that results in no way at all to have the concept "kill the body but not the soul" included in those talking point without editing it to say instead ""Do not fear those who can bring your earthly existence (body-soma) to an end, but cannot annihilate your eternal life in God; but fear God who is able to destroy your whole being eternally."

How many places can we replace the word soul with "your eternal life in God"??
"Souls in the sea"?
"as his spirit was departing"?
"the soul that sins will die" Ezek 18:4 becomes "the eternal life in God that sins will die"??

Christ "brings with him" at the 2nd coming - "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" 1 Thess 4:14

He is not bringing back with him - dust and corpses
He is not bringing back with him -- sleeping puffs of air

He is bringing back something that is "dormant" (sleeps) and that something is "the person" addressed as "those WHO"

=============== belief #26

“Death and Resurrection: The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.)”

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in that belief - it is clear that "immortal" is not simply "survives death in a dormant or sleep-state" because it claims that all mankind is mortal yet all are in a "dormant state" - "sleep" at death. So it does not fit the definition that text is using for "immortal" to say that if something survives death - even in a dormant state -- it is immortal.

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I find a lot of "going beyond what is written in that belief 26" in the talking points that have been going around on this topic over the decades.

The souls are immortal only in that God has promised to resurrect them.

There is no "immortal soul" or "souls are immortal" in the Bible. But there is the concept of "kill the body but not the soul" where the soul is in a dormant "sleep" state at death. This is still "the mortal state" because it is the one we are all in .. even the wicked are in that state

So, BobRyan how do you deal with Adventist statement #28 - That death will no longer exist?

The state of death is that the body is killed but the soul is in a dormant state. That is the "mortal state".

but as we see in 1 Cor 15 "this mortal must put on immortality" - so the mortal state will end at the 2nd coming for the saints. The wicked will still be raised up in that same mortal state after the 1000 years.

But the definition of mortal, and the definition of death is that at death the body returns to dust but that does not kill the soul "they kill the body but are not able to kill the soul".

 

[Deade]

but as we see in 1 Cor 15 "this mortal must put on immortality" - so the mortal state will end at the 2nd coming for the saints. The wicked will still be raised up in that same mortal state after the 1000 years.

I agree with you to this point, what happens from here on for those not called in the first fruits Church? After the GWTJ what happens to them?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with you to this point, what happens from here on for those not called in the first fruits Church? After the GWTJ what happens to them?

humanity will either be raised in the first or second resurrection. All those raised in the 2nd resurrection undergo the GWT and are cast into the lake of fire - that is the second death.

It is there that God is going to "destroy both body and soul" in the fires of the 2nd death lake of fire.

Each person will be tormented there in fire and brimstone - but only in proportion to his deeds which he has done - some will receive few and others many stripes as Christ said.

 

[Deade]

humanity will either be raised in the first or second resurrection. All those raised in the 2nd resurrection undergo the GWT and are cast into the lake of fire - that is the second death.

It is there that God is going to "destroy both body and soul" in the fires of the 2nd death lake of fire.

Each person will be tormented there in fire and brimstone - but only in proportion to his deeds which he has done - some will receive few and others many stripes as Christ said.

Rev. 20:12-15 "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Does the above not suggest some will have life assigned at this resurrection? Then it isn't just a resurrection of damnation.

 

[BobRyan]

Does the above not suggest some will have life assigned at this resurrection? Then it isn't just a resurrection of damnation.

1. The text does not say that in the 2nd resurrection anyone goes to heaven - it only describes people being cast into the lake of fire. You are inferring it but the question is - does that work? You could make the case that some people raised in the 2nd resurrection did in some case get "heaven" as their reward "but it was not considered important enough to mention". But that seems a bit of stretch.

2. the only folks over whom the second death has no power - mentioned in Rev 20 -- are those in the "first resurrection". That statement alone tells us that everyone in the 2nd resurrection is in the group over whom the 2nd death does have power.

3. Christ said there are two resurrections - one of life - and one of damnation.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It is very clear that the first resurrection is the "resurrection of life" the one where the "second death has no power".

Using your suggestion above it means you have to make the case that those raised in the "resurrection of damnation" do in some cases get heaven. Does not seem likely.

 

[Deade]

1. The text does not say that in the 2nd resurrection anyone goes to heaven - it only describes people being cast into the lake of fire. You are inferring it but the question is - does that work? You could make the case that some people raised in the 2nd resurrection did in some case get "heaven" as their reward "but it was not considered important enough to mention". But that seems a bit of stretch.

2. the only folks over whom the second death has no power - mentioned in Rev 20 -- are those in the "first resurrection". That statement alone tells us that everyone in the 2nd resurrection is in the group over whom the 2nd death does have power.

3. Christ said there are two resurrections - one of life - and one of damnation.

John 5
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It is very clear that the first resurrection is the "resurrection of life" the one where the "second death has no power".

Using your suggestion above it means you have to make the case that those raised in the "resurrection of damnation" do in some cases get heaven. Does not seem likely.

Why are they reading from the book of life then? If everyone is resurrected to just summarily turn around and throw them into the LOF, what would be the point? What is the point of resurrecting them?

Also, what was Christ referring to when He spoke of the judgment?

Matt. 11:21-24 "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

 

[BobRyan]

Why are they reading from the book of life then? If everyone is resurrected to just summarily turn around and throw them into the LOF, what would be the point? What is the point of resurrecting them?

Also, what was Christ referring to when He spoke of the judgment?

The problem is not the wicked getting cast into the lake of fire - the problem is those watching it. The problem is "the living".

1. All the wicked were "dust" before being resurrected after the 1000 years. As dust they did not have any "thoughts" - even a dormant soul is not "thinking". Their dust will be "no better informed" after the lake of fire event as before. It will remember nothing about the GWT or the record books or the torment in the fire and brimstone of the lake of fire.
2. but the living - their friends and relatives, the witnesses... will see it all.. they will remember it all. For them the GWT must raise the lost and explain to them what is going on. the reaction of the lost must be seen/observed. The lost then become "the last witness" against their own course of action where they themselves confess that it is just. This is the final chapter in that lesson book that the Great Teacher is trying to explain.


Matt. 11:21-24 "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

A day of judgment is coming for those wicked people and they will see as they are seen, they will respond that their judgment is just - and they will be terminated.