The Immaculate Conception?

[CaliforniaJosiah]

First, a word on typology
Now the thing about OT types and their NT ante-types, is that the NT version is the superior, fulfilled, improved version. Jesus is the type of Adam (Rm 5:14). As Adam was the first of his kind, so Jesus is the first, better, of His. As Adam brought sin into the world, Jesus removed it. Take the Gospel of John on bread, regarding bread and how the OT type is inferior to the NT type. The manna in the OT gave physical, temporal life. In the NT, spiritual, eternal life. You can see the same regarding baptism in 1 Peter 3. And there are lots of other examples. So that's a super-quick primer on typology.

Mary as Ark of the Covenant
Now here's a Word doc on Mary as Ark compiling ECFs recognizing this parallel. Here is a tidy graph showing the obvious Scriptural parallels.

The Ark was to be made of extremely precise measurements and metal, specifically gold. It carried the Word of the Commandments, the rod of Aaron the priest, and the bread of manna. So too does Mary carry Jesus, the Word, the Priest, and the Bread of Life. Gold is not only a sign of great holiness in the OT, but it is the symbol of holiness in the order of Christ. Precious metals are a symbol of purity from sin. In 1 Corinthians 3, Paul tells us how a man's work can either be of gold, silver, or precious metal or the fleeting substances of hay or straw. The non-good works, sin, will be purged away. Then only the pure gold and silver remains. This is a reference to smelting, known even in the OT as a means to purify (Ez 22:22). So anyway, the Ark is made of this pure metal, and thus, the Church recognized in Mary as the New Ark even greater purity. From the physical to the spiritual, from temporal purity to eternal purity. There are other analogs regarding Mary and the Ark demonstrating similar typology, and perhaps a good article or some books will help.

Mary as New Eve
First, some of the ECFs on this (Cardinal Newman lists some under "Second Eve" heading) (And some more). And here's some of their Scriptural parallels on Mary as Eve organized by my friend on this forum Athanasius.

As you noted, typology usually requires a NEW TESTAMENT fulfillment - a NT reference to the OT. It requires TWO SIDES, TWO PARTS - the type and the ante-type. Your typology in this matter totally fails. You have OT verses, which you CLAIM are "types" but there's no stated fulfillment. This is dangerous, as anyone who has ever studied Mormonism well knows. ANYONE can claim that ANYTHING is a "type" of ANYTHING. And they probably do.

What is important to know about Eve, is that she was created without sin!

If one says it, does it become true? Dogma? A matter of highest importance and certainty?

As you seem to admit, there is no Scripture that says this. And you'll discover that there is no RCC early "Father" that does, either.

These ideas are largely why many of the Reformers held Mary to have been Immaculately conceived, or at least that the notion was not contrary to Scripture, and certainly not heretical.

... and that is STILL the position of Lutheranism. But to say something is not CONTRARY to Scripture and thus not "heretical" in that sense ain't saying much. It's also not CONTRARY to Scripture that Mary was 15 feet tall, had pink hair and lived entirely on fish tacos - but that doesn't make such a matter of DOGMA. MUCH of what you rebuke in these threads is not CONTRARY to Scripture - and yet you don't agree with it. Your statement is remarkably moot.

Protestantism has a concept we call "pious opinion." These are NOT DOGMAS or doctrines. They are matters neither confirmed or denied by Scripture but are historic, ecumenical issues of Tradition. They may be embraced and taught, but they are not dogmas. Much of Mariology falls into that category for us. Without a doubt, the early Luther had a very passionate Mariology and embraced many of these views - but he did not rebuke or take any steps against those that disagreed with him on them: he regarded them as "pious opinion."




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[Mary of Bethany]

What do the EO teach we inherit at conception, if anything?

Death and corruption, which results in a darkened nous, disorded passions, a tendency towards sin.

Mary

 

[MrPolo]

Death and corruption, which results in a darkened nous, disorded passions, a tendency towards sin.

And of course the Orthodox baptize infants, correct? If yes, as I understand, what does baptism do for the infant?

 

[katherine2001]

For the EO, baptism of infants brings them under the Church, and then they are raised in the Church, and they start receiving the sacraments, including the Eucharist from the time they are baptized. If they don't have teeth and can't chew yet, they are just given a little of the Blood (they don't receive the Body until they can chew). Obviously, they can't receive the sacraments of Marriage, Ordination (into the diaconate or priesthood), or be tonsured as a monastic yet.

 

[RND]

For the EO, baptism of infants brings them under the Church, and then they are raised in the Church, and they start receiving the sacraments, including the Eucharist from the time they are baptized. If they don't have teeth and can't chew yet, they are just given a little of the Blood (they don't receive the Body until they can chew). Obviously, they can't receive the sacraments of Marriage, Ordination (into the diaconate or priesthood), or be tonsured as a monastic yet.

Question: If an infant can't choose for himself to believe in the "real presence" indwelling the grape juice how then is that imparted on the infant? Since the infant cannot chew then are receiving only half the sacrament. What happens with the supposed presence of the other half? If a person isn't conscious of the belief in the RP then how does one know the RP was received?

 

[MrPolo]

For the EO, baptism of infants brings them under the Church, and then they are raised in the Church, and they start receiving the sacraments, including the Eucharist from the time they are baptized. If they don't have teeth and can't chew yet, they are just given a little of the Blood (they don't receive the Body until they can chew). Obviously, they can't receive the sacraments of Marriage, Ordination (into the diaconate or priesthood), or be tonsured as a monastic yet.

Orthodoxy's view of sacrament is similar to Catholic, no? It is an outward sign of inward reality. The washing, as Scripture often says. What does that mean to Orthodox. I'm asking because the only thing you mentioned baptism does is "bring them under the Church" and I'm not sure how that fits in.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

We don't believe in "original sin" to be washed away - only actual sin, and since an infant has no actual sin, that act of baptism doesn't apply to them. Baptism brings them into the Church, and as Katherine said, they immediately begin receiving the Holy Mysteries with the rest of the baptized.

RND,

in the Orthodox Church, the wine and bread are mixed together in the chalice, along with warm water. We then receive it by spoon from the priest. Even if there aren't any noticeable bread particles in the spoon given the infant, there is some mixture, I'm sure. But even if not - it's still the Holy Mysteries.

And as far as whether it can really be the sacrament if the child doesn't understand - that's a big difference between Orthodoxy and the rest of Christianity. We don't place any importance on rational or intellectual "knowledge" as a pre-requisite for being in the Church and all that entails.

Some churches - such as Catholics - will not give the sacraments to those with impaired mental capacity. Orthodoxy finds that abhorrent. God is known (experienced) with the heart.

Mary

 

[CathNancy]

Mary what do you mean by impaired mental capacity? I know for a fact that Catholics with Downs Syndrom do receive the sacraments.

Peace,
Nancy

 

[MrPolo]

We don't believe in "original sin" to be washed away - only actual sin, and since an infant has no actual sin, that act of baptism doesn't apply to them. Baptism brings them into the Church, and as Katherine said, they immediately begin receiving the Holy Mysteries with the rest of the baptized.

For Orthodoxy, for infants, what is the inward reality reflected in the use of water?

 

[MrPolo]

Mary what do you mean by impaired mental capacity? I know for a fact that Catholics with Downs Syndrom do receive the sacraments.

Peace,
Nancy

And we know Terri Schiavo received sacraments.

 

[prodromos]

For Orthodoxy, for infants, what is the inward reality reflected in the use of water?

Participation in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Mary what do you mean by impaired mental capacity? I know for a fact that Catholics with Downs Syndrom do receive the sacraments.

Peace,
Nancy

I'm glad to hear that. I based my remark on several things I've heard while listening to Catholic Answers (I often listen to that on my way home from work), and I've been shocked to hear it stated - by different priests and hosts - that people with mental impairments cannot receive the Sacrament.

If that's not correct, then I'm glad!

Mary

 

[MrPolo]

Participation in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Yes, but why does an infant need that?

 

[katherine2001]

Babies were part of the covenant that God had with the Jews. That is why male babies were circumcised. For Christians, they are received by baptism.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Yes, but why does an infant need that?

To bring them into the Church, the Body of Christ, so they may receive all the grace that only the Church can give. They need to grow in Christ just like adults.

I'm not sure exactly why you're asking, but just because an infant has not personally sinned doesn't mean that he doesn't need all that Christ has provided for us, through the Church. Why should children be made to wait, when the "medicine of immortality" is available?

Does that get to why you're asking, or is there something else?

Mary

 

[Sphinx777]

If a child were to die without first being baptized, would they be able to go to Heaven?

 

[katherine2001]

I've never seen an Orthodox baptism like that picture. It is usually the priest who immerses the child in the font and I've never seen water poured over them.

 

[stjesusfreak8]

And some Catholics are pushing for Mary to be declared a co-redepmtrix/co-redeemer

You cant pray to Mary. The scriptures are clear you can only pray to Jesus or through Jesus to the father. Theres no scriptures in the bible that gives Mary any special authority. This is herecy. Of course most Catholic teachings are anti-scriptural.

 

[stjesusfreak8]

If a child were to die without first being baptized, would they be able to go to Heaven

Baptism only counts after salvation. Baptizing a baby is unscriptural. What bible do these people read.

 

[boswd]

If a child were to die without first being baptized, would they be able to go to Heaven

Baptism only counts after salvation. Baptizing a baby is unscriptural. What bible do these people read.

Christian Faiths that Baptize Infants :

UMC
Presb.
Anglicans/Episcopalians
Church of The Nazerene
Eastern Orthodox
Roman Catholics
Oriental Orthodox
Lutherens

Those who don't :

Baptist
Pentacostals



What Bible are you reading?