The Immaculate Conception of Mary

[Ave Maria]

Today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Today we celebrate the fact that Mary was conceived without sin and lived a sinless life. What do you all think of this doctrine? I suspect that many of you think it is false.

 

[MrPolo]

Mary, the new Eve, is from her first moment even greater than her inferior ante-type Eve who was also formed without original sin!

 

[The Penitent Man]

Was Mary actually sinless? I don't know. All I know is that she was chosen by the Father to be the mother of Jesus on earth. God favoured her becauise of her virtue. Save for Jesus Christ, I don't think it's humanly possible for any human person to be sinless. After the Fall of Eden, everyone was born into sin were they not?



(I can speak only for myself.)

 

[bibleblevr]

for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God Mary sinless? I don't think so!

was she born from a women and a man? yes! then she was born with the original sin from eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil like all of us.

Doesn't God use the simple things to shame the wise and the weak to shame the strong. He used a murderer named Moses to save the Jews and an adulterer named David to be the greatest ever king of Isrial! Why are we stuck on the idea that when God choose to come to earth, he would not follow his own pattern and choose a weak and unfit servant to make his power manifested?

 

[MrPolo]

Shouldn't it give anyone pause that if the Scripture "all have sinned" was so patently obvious that Mary sinned how this dogma could possibly have survived for so many centuries??? Or how even Luther was even able to embrace it? Are any of you skeptics able to accurately describe the theology of the Immaculate Conception? Where it comes from?

I would like to hear a Protestant accurately describe the Catholic Church's theology behind the IC and why it is taught.

 

[LST 1154]

Shouldn't it give anyone pause that if the Scripture "all have sinned" was so patently obvious that Mary sinned how this dogma could possibly have survived for so many centuries??? Or how even Luther was even able to embrace it? Are any of you skeptics able to accurately describe the theology of the Immaculate Conception? Where it comes from?

I would like to hear a Protestant accurately describe the Catholic Church's theology behind the IC and why it is taught.

Not only am I a Protestant, but a born again Holy Spirit filled one to boot.

So this is a centuries old dogma huh? Depending on how you want to count this dogma it will either be one century old in about 44 years (2054) or it is 154 years old. The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, published December 8, 1854 (the Feast of the Immaculate Conception), and consecrated by Pope Pius XII in 1942. The dogma was rejected by the Orthodox Church in 1854. According to the dogma, Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but her soul was acted upon by God (kept "immaculate") at the time of her conception.

The Catholic Church believes the dogma is supported by scripture (e.g. her being greeted by Angel Gabriel as "full of Grace"), as well as either directly or indirectly by the writings of many of the Church Fathers, and often calls Mary the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:48). Catholic theology maintains that since Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, she needed to be completely free of sin to bear the Son of God, and that Mary is "redeemed 'by the grace of Christ' but in a more perfect manner than other human beings." (In other words find a scripture then wrap a false belief around it.)​

So contrary to what the scriptures say, God does show favoritism after all (or at least He did to Mary!) Romans 2:11 and Acts 10: 34 says, "For God does not show favoritism." ​

So was Mary the only person in the bible who was "full of grace?" No. Acts 6:8 says "Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." While Mary claims in Luke 1:48 that "...all generations will call me blessed" the term blessed is used 67 other times in the NT alone. To be called blessed is hardly unique. Yes she was chosen by God to be the vehicle to carry His Son, but beyond that she was just an ordinary woman. She says of herself that she is of "low estate" and a "handmaiden" in Luke 1:48.

I believe the reason the sin nature was not present in Jesus is because the sin nature is passed down through the father of the baby not the mother. So since God was the father of Jesus He couldn't have the sin nature.​

LST​

 

[dalinea]

I believe the reason the sin nature was not present in Jesus is because the sin nature is passed down through the father of the baby not the mother. So since God was the father of Jesus He couldn't have the sin nature.​

LST​

Why do believe that?
What passage in Scripture, I assume you are sola scriptura, do you explicitly or implicity find that shown.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Sadly, this is one of several Marian dogmas unique to the Catholic Church and held by no other Christian Church. The reality is that it has merely served to further the separation of the Catholic Church from the body of Christ.

 

[JacksLadder]

Today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Today we celebrate the fact that Mary was conceived without sin and lived a sinless life. What do you all think of this doctrine? I suspect that many of you think it is false.

I believe it to be false , but it is a nice story and Mary was a great disciple of her son.

 

[MrPolo]

Not only am I a Protestant, but a born again Holy Spirit filled one to boot.

So this is a centuries old dogma huh? Depending on how you want to count this dogma it will either be one century old in about 44 years (2054) or it is 154 years old. The Immaculate Conception was solemnly defined as a dogma by Pope Pius IX in his constitution Ineffabilis Deus, published December 8, 1854 (the Feast of the Immaculate Conception), and consecrated by Pope Pius XII in 1942. The dogma was rejected by the Orthodox Church in 1854. According to the dogma, Mary was conceived by normal biological means, but her soul was acted upon by God (kept "immaculate") at the time of her conception.

The Catholic Church believes the dogma is supported by scripture (e.g. her being greeted by Angel Gabriel as "full of Grace"), as well as either directly or indirectly by the writings of many of the Church Fathers, and often calls Mary the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:48). Catholic theology maintains that since Jesus became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, she needed to be completely free of sin to bear the Son of God, and that Mary is "redeemed 'by the grace of Christ' but in a more perfect manner than other human beings." (In other words find a scripture then wrap a false belief around it.)​

So contrary to what the scriptures say, God does show favoritism after all (or at least He did to Mary!) Romans 2:11 and Acts 10: 34 says, "For God does not show favoritism." ​

So was Mary the only person in the bible who was "full of grace?" No. Acts 6:8 says "Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." While Mary claims in Luke 1:48 that "...all generations will call me blessed" the term blessed is used 67 other times in the NT alone. To be called blessed is hardly unique. Yes she was chosen by God to be the vehicle to carry His Son, but beyond that she was just an ordinary woman. She says of herself that she is of "low estate" and a "handmaiden" in Luke 1:48.

I believe the reason the sin nature was not present in Jesus is because the sin nature is passed down through the father of the baby not the mother. So since God was the father of Jesus He couldn't have the sin nature.​

LST​

If you mean when was the dogma "defined" yes that was 1854. If you mean when did it become apparent in the teaching of the Church, the answer is quite antiquated.

You are missing in this explanation of Catholic theology quite a bit, limiting your understanding to "because the Church Fathers said so" and a Scripture verse. But why do they say so? What are their responses to these "trouble" verses you cite?

The dogma itself is so much deeper. There is the typology of Eve who entered this world without the stain of original sin. There is the figure of the Church without blemish. The ark of Noah. The dwelling place of the first Adam, the immaculate garden. Etc...etc...etc... It's a package deal.

What you offer is part of a much larger picture. Have you read Ineffabilis Deus?

Incidentally, regarding Stephen... The Greek word used for Mary is kecharitomene. This is a perfect passive participle, indicating the presence of an action already completed in the past. The angel addresses her with this title. That's why she was "troubled" by the greeting...it was quite unique. In Acts 6:8 the Greek here used for Stephen is in the present tense (pleres charitos). Also, it is not used as a title. Mary is the only one to ever be addressed as "kecharitomene."

I would recommend anyone read Father Mateo's Refuting the Attack on Mary series for an understanding of the Greek and a lot of other issues. Available in book form, or in This Rock magazine archives starting in Aug. 1992.

 

[Sphinx777]

​

 

[ittarter]

Today is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Today we celebrate the fact that Mary was conceived without sin and lived a sinless life. What do you all think of this doctrine? I suspect that many of you think it is false.

Whether true or false, I just don't see the point of it. The theological justification smacks of the gnostic philosophy of demiurges, and the remainder is simply the climax of two millenia of Marian devotion gone too far.

 

[MrPolo]

Whether true or false, I just don't see the point of it.

The Catholic Church only receives divine revelation, of which we believe the IC is part. We do not say to God when He revealed something mysterious, like the Trinity, that we did not see the point, therefore we reject it. Secondly, what one must understand about all Marian dogmas is that they reveal something about Christ. Mary as the Immaculate dwelling place of Christ tells us about Christ. Mary as figure of the Church tells us about the nature of the Church, which is Christ's body. Mary prefigures the Church in the age to come. And on and on.... The depths of this dogma are rich, beautiful, and ultimately Christ-centered. Some people may never grasp this dogma until they first recognize this.

 

[ittarter]

The Catholic Church only receives divine revelation, of which we believe the IC is part. We do not say to God when He revealed something mysterious, like the Trinity, that we did not see the point, therefore we reject it. Secondly, what one must understand about all Marian dogmas is that they reveal something about Christ. Mary as the Immaculate dwelling place of Christ tells us about Christ. Mary as figure of the Church tells us about the nature of the Church, which is Christ's body. Mary prefigures the Church in the age to come. And on and on.... The depths of this dogma are rich, beautiful, and ultimately Christ-centered. Some people may never grasp this dogma until they first recognize this.

See? You DO see the point!

Alas, I'm not Catholic, so I'm compelled to ask, "What's the point?" Since you had a good answer for me, the door is now open for me to consider it and eventually, perhaps, embrace it. Thanks!

 

[LST 1154]

I can't find where I must believe that Mary was immaculately conceived in the scriptures, and so far the Holy Spirit has not said that this is a "you must believe this dogma or else" thing so I guess I'm not going to worry about it. I believe that God will hold me accountable for what I did with His gift of salvation and with how much love I have demonstrated toward His creation, not whether I believed some Catholic dogma about Mary that some teenager dreamed up a couple hundred years ago. Next thing you know they will attempt to convince me the pope is sinless which ain't gonna happen.

LST

 

[bbbbbbb]

I can't find where I must believe that Mary was immaculately conceived in the scriptures, and so far the Holy Spirit has not said that this is a "you must believe this dogma or else" thing so I guess I'm not going to worry about it. I believe that God will hold me accountable for what I did with His gift of salvation and with how much love I have demonstrated toward His creation, not whether I believed some Catholic dogma about Mary that some teenager dreamed up a couple hundred years ago. Next thing you know they will attempt to convince me the pope is sinless which ain't gonna happen.

LST

This reminds me of a discussion I had some years ago with a good friend. He was waxing eloquently above various things which he believed to be implied in scripture. My response, which still stands, is that when I get the explicit things fully addressed in my life I will then start to concern myself with implicit things. I am still working on the explicit things. The hardest one at present is loving my neighbor as myself.

 

[ittarter]

This reminds me of a discussion I had some years ago with a good friend. He was waxing eloquently above various things which he believed to be implied in scripture. My response, which still stands, is that when I get the explicit things fully addressed in my life I will then start to concern myself with implicit things. I am still working on the explicit things. The hardest one at present is loving my neighbor as myself.

"The first duty of love is to listen." -Paul Tillich

So you're saying that reflecting on the traditions of one of the three largest wings of Christianity is going to take away from your ability to love selflessly?

Hmm, I doubt it. It seems to me that part of loving others as yourself is understanding them and listening to them. Stop trying so hard. There you were, in a dialogue with your friend, and were you really listening? I'm not sure. You're probably a better judge of that than I am. Seems ironic, though

 

[AngryKoala]

Just to be clear, tradition should not mean anything regarding whether something is true or not. Islam has been around almost as long as Christianity but we dont give them any benefit of being right. Luther may have believed it, but he also was an anti-semite and wrote a book about it, one of Hitler's favorites.

Question. Did Mary, if sinless, deserve death like the rest of us wicked, unrighteous sinners?

 

[MrPolo]

Did Mary, if sinless, deserve death like the rest of us wicked, unrighteous sinners?

That is not part of the definition of the IC or the Assumption. In the dogma of the Assumption, the doc is very careful in the defining paragraph to simply state: "having completed the course of her earthly life..." HOWEVER---the language seems to indicate she did experience temporal death throughout the history of tradition in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, etc... While she would not have "deserved" it as a result of sin, she would have shared in that experience, as Christ did, Who we all agree did not deserve temporal death.

 

[AngryKoala]

Many believe that Christ would not die had we/God in his plan not killed him. Your thoughts?