Defensor Christi
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- Oct 25, 2012
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Yes, of course I know that you believe that your church is the one and only church on the face of the earth and that the rest of us are schismatics, heretics, sectarians, ecclesial communities, separated brethren, etc. depending how the current wind of semantics might be blowing.
What helps your argument is that fact that you believe that your church alone has the fullness of truth, including the dogma of the IC as being salvific which none of the rest of us assent to.
Some 1800 years ago, however there were only two choices about HOW, either normal birth with normal afterbirth (thus virginity ends) or abnormal, as a spirit out the side, or through the wall (thus virginity retained).
At least we are on the same page now...
That has never been defined by the Church...
"Please note that the Church never has authoritatively ruled on the interpretation or specifics of <virginitas in partu>. Moreover, on July 27, 1960, the Holy Office (now the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) warned again discussing this issue in a way "...clearly opposed to the traditional doctrine of the Church and the devotional sense of the faithful."
Father William Saunders
Come and see. And the midwife went away with him. And they stood in the place of the cave, and behold a luminous cloud overshadowed the cave. And the midwife said: My soul has been magnified this day, because my eyes have seen strange things— because salvation has been brought forth to Israel. And immediately the cloud disappeared out of the cave, and a great light shone in the cave, so that the eyes could not bear it. And in a little that light gradually decreased, until the infant appeared, and went and took the breast from His mother Mary. And the midwife cried out, and said: This is a great day to me, because I have seen this strange sight. And the midwife went forth out of the cave, and Salome met her. And she said to her: Salome, Salome, I have a strange sight to relate to you: a virgin has brought forth— a thing which her nature admits not of. Then said Salome: As the Lord my God lives, unless I thrust in my finger, and search the parts, I will not believe that a virgin has brought forth.
IC is a dogma of RC. In order for them to be saved (go to heaven), they must believe Mary is a virgin, before, during, and after birth.
Confusing. Are you discussing the IC or Mary's virginity? The two have actually nothing to do with each other.
Standing Up, you wrote: "I know RC hasn't defined the HOW. Of course they can't rule on the specifics of the HOW. To do so would "remove the emperor's clothes" and reveal its nakedness. It would force RC to tell the world they think Jesus was born from Mary's side (the east gate (see John of Damascus for example)) or as a spirit through a wall, thus retaining virginity.
And yes, to discuss this, to introduce a question, about an RC de fide dogma is a mortal sin, the penalty of which RC believes will send a Christian to hell. As we are well aware, however, some of us do not belong to or believe in RC Church. "
How do you know ? Were you there ? You write as a two thousand year old Johnny -come- lately, try reading the writings of the early Christians who were there who actually knew the Blessed Virgin Mary the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ.
The earliest stories of the Virgin Birth scenario involve the east gate.
The Virgin Mary's Womb as Ezekiel's Closed Gate of the Messiah | Taylor Marshall
How about Adam's east gate, as a symbol Mary's east gate?
I know RC hasn't defined the HOW. Of course they can't rule on the specifics of the HOW. To do so would "remove the emperor's clothes" and reveal its nakedness. It would force RC to tell the world they think Jesus was born from Mary's side (the east gate (see John of Damascus for example)) or as a spirit through a wall, thus retaining virginity.
And yes, to discuss this, to introduce a question, about an RC de fide dogma is a mortal sin, the penalty of which RC believes will send a Christian to hell. As we are well aware, however, some of us do not belong to or believe in RC Church.
Well, I suppose one can make a case for the IC of Adam then.
Well, I suppose one can make a case for the IC of Adam then.
You certainly can make a case for Mary's Mother, St. Ann. If it was so important that God be born of an ever-immaculate mother, it hardly makes sense that the Mother of God would have been born of an ordinary sinner herself.
Of course, but as you know, Catholic logic seems to extend to only one generation.
IC is baseless myth raised to the level of infallible theology.
Hmmmm, great I see this discussion has devolved into 3rd grade name calling...good indicator the debate has been won. Thanks!
It is an unnecessary theology. There is nothing about Mary that would make Jesus impure, whether or not she was immaculately conceived.
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