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The Immaculate Conception contradicts the gospel (2)

Citizen of the Kingdom

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Then He would have the cabbage nature instead of the human nature
 
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Root of Jesse

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Sure, why not join that religion???
 
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Albion

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Then He would have the cabbage nature instead of the human nature

Not really. I said he could have been found in a cabbage patch, not that he would be a head of cabbage LOL.

If he wasn't born like all humans are born, why have a charade of natural childbirth at all? That still seems like a fair question.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Not really. I said he could have been found in a cabbage patch, not that he would be a head of cabbage LOL.

If he wasn't born like all humans are born, why have a charade of natural childbirth at all? That still seems like a fair question.
He wasn't born as all others were born because others were born into the sin nature of the old adam. Christ was born as a new creation from the beginning. The Father still knit Him together in the womb, still wonderfully made, but even moreso.

(The head of the church of brussel sprouts lol)
 
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Albion

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He wasn't born as all others were born because others were born into the sin nature of the old adam.
No, that isn't the point. It is understood by all major branches of Christianity (I'd almost say "all Christian churches" except that there is always an exception to the rule somewhere or other whenever we are talking about religion) that Christ did not inherit sin and COULD NOT inherit sin. But that's because he was God.

God cannot have sin. But that has nothing to do with the physical act of childbirth, and here it's being suggested (by the RCC) that he was not, in fact, born of a woman in the way that all the rest of us are--physically speaking, that is. Well, if not, then why go through the pretense of it? That's the question.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Since I'm not RCC I can't answer that for you
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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No, no...that was after the resurrection. Dust off your Bible. Speculation is bad! Truth is good!

The divine essence was conceived

Exodus 40:34
Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

In being concieved He was born of the Spirit. After baptism He was led of the Spirit (into the wilderness)
The church's counterpart is being breathed upon and then recieving
 
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B

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Thank you! That does help to clarify the matter a great deal.
 
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B

bbbbbbb

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I do not see any difference between what the CCC says and what St. Thomas says.

I did see a difference. The CCC clearly stated that those born into ecclesial communities which are not affiliated with the Catholic Church, and who have been baptized according to Christian baptism are to be considered as brothers in the faith.

Your quote, however, made it sound very clearly that those who do not believe the doctrines of the Catholic Church and, in fact, hold to doctrines which have been determined to be heretical are, in fact, heretics.

So, what I see here is, on one hand, the embrace of members of Protestant churches through baptism by the Catholic Church and, on the other hand, the clear rejection of all Protestants who believe doctrines which have been rejected by the Catholic Church.
 
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Standing Up

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Why go through the pretense? Because, IMO, they want an ever-virgin to "adore" AND want to claim Christ is 100% human (and 100% God). The history, however, does not allow for that contradiction.

2000 years ago they hashed out this question. Scripture and tradition through Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria come down on the normal human birth side (of the flesh, with water and blood and afterbirth, requiring a sin offering, virginity gone upon birth, regardless of what Joseph/Mary did afterward). The other Tradition comes through the Protoevangelium of James with its "teleporting" of the baby idea (no afterbirth, no loss of virginity, not really human like us).

Of course, that Church rejects that PoJ docetic idea (Spirit as "flesh" passed through Mary), but it loves the ever-virgin idea. So, today they say yes Christ is flesh AND Mary retained her virginity. Not sure how that works, but they think that's how it happened.

For my part, I'll stick with scripture (born of a woman, came by water and blood) and tradition (brothers are sons of Joseph/Mary, Mary had afterbirth and thus virginity gone).
 
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Standing Up

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Now that that's settled, I think it naturally raises this question:

Why would the Son of God require a human mother at all, if he was not going to be born in the way that all other humans are born?

Exactly. That's the point. Conceived of a virgin, born of a woman.
 
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Setyoufree

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The divine essence was conceived

Deity already existed. What was conceived was...here, let me quote the Bible:

Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same (as the son of man), that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels (sinless beings like Adam before the fall), but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Belief in the incarnation is not something debatable to me. The Word becoming flesh as the ONLY begotten, not one of many. Great is the mystery of godliness that first manifested in the flesh and was justified in the Spirit. If he is your Lord He was so on the day of His birth, if not then he was just a man born into flesh to become a new creation like everyone elso, by the same means. But that's not what the incarnation was about

Luke 2:11
Because today a Savior has been born to you in David's city, who is Christ the Lord.
 
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concretecamper

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Does the CCC say they are not guilt of heresy? No. It also talks about culpability. You cannot charge modern era protestants with the sin of separation. That is not saying they are not heretics. Please do not read more than what the words say.
 
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Targaryen

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Does the CCC say they are not guilt of heresy? No. It also talks about culpability. You cannot charge modern era protestants with the sin of separation. That is not saying they are not heretics. Please do not read more than what the words say.

Apparently, you don't read your own church's teachings all that well do you?

Not that surprising TBH
 
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concretecamper

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Apparently, you don't read your own church's teachings all that well do you?

Not that surprising TBH

I will take that as a compliment .....coming from someone who's ecclesiastical community changes faith and morals every 10 years.
 
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