• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Immaculate Conception and Free Will

LOCO

Church Militant
Jun 29, 2011
1,143
68
✟24,189.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Like I said already,your Pope has no apostolic power,cannot perform miracles.



All miracles are performed by Christ, not the person.


HEALING MIRACLES BY CATHOLICS (pg2)

CATHOLIC CHURCH REQUIREMENT FOR A MIRACLE TO BE DEFINED AS A MIRACLE:

1. Cure was instantaneous
2. Disease was incurable and did not return. No other medical, scientific explanation for cure.
3. Patient is examined by secular and religious doctors, psychologists and/or psychiatrists
4. Patient is monitored over a period of time
5. All medical, personal and eyewitness reports are documented
6. Cure attributed to prayer resulting in divine intervention


There are many more who raised the dead but there isn't enough space, so I'll go with my personal favourite.

St Vincent Ferrer (1350-1419) - Dominican priest:priest:


He moved in the limelight before both ordinary people and the great of the world. He once converted 10,000 Jews at one time by marching right into their synagogue and preaching to them; the Jews turned their synagogue into a Catholic Church.

So great a missionary was St. Vincent Ferrer that he can only be compared to the 12 Apostles. His accomplishments were incredible and rare in the whole history of the Church; his life story contains one amazing story after another, many of these are documented in the book “St Vincent Ferrer –The Angel of the Judgment” by Father Andrew Pradel, O.P.

When St. Vincent Ferrer was 46 years old, suffering from a grievous illness, Our Lord appeared to him, accompanied by St. Francis and St. Dominic; Our Lord said to Vincent, among other things, "Arise, then, and go to preach against vice; for this have I specially chosen thee. Exhort sinners to repentance, for My judgment is at hand." Our Lord told St. Vincent that his preaching before the coming of Antichrist would be for mankind a merciful occasion of repentance and conversion.

During this vision St. Vincent was immediately cured.

Two years later, in 1398, he was given permission to begin his apostolate of preaching. St. Vincent travelled all over western Europe preaching penance, attracting enormous crowds, and followed by thousands of disciples. He converted St. Bernardine of Siena and Blessed Margaret of Savoy. Vincent had the gift of languages; preaching in his Valencion idiom he was understood wherever he went; and in conversation he spoke French, Italian, German or English as fluently as his native tongue.

Some would consider it a conservative estimate that St. Vincent Ferrer converted 25,000 Jews and 8,000 Moors; his total number of conversions was around 200,000 souls- among them Moors, Jews, heretics, and apostate Catholics. At Toulouse he spoke on the Passion for six hours without a break before a crowd of 30,000 at the packed Place St. Etienne. When he cried out, "Arise you dead, and come to Judgment!" the whole crowd fell on their faces begging for mercy.

Learning about the many other wonders of St. Vincent makes it easier to accept the accounts of his death-to-life miracles. The Acta Sanctorum records 873 miracles performed by the saint, but there were actually many more. In 1412 Vincent himself told a crowd, "God has wrought in His mercy, through me a miserable sinner, three thousand miracles." After that Vincent lived seven more years, which was a period of even greater miracles.

The Bollandist hagiographers tell of 70 persons who were delivered from diabolical possession by St. Vincent Ferrer. He had such power over devils that it was often enough for him to touch a possessed person for him to be freed; at other times, a possessed person would be freed from the devil merely upon going to the same place as where Vincent was or even simply when Vincent's name was pronounced.

St. Antonius (Antoninus), Archbishop of Florence, another learned Dominican about 30 years old when Vincent died, stated that St. Vincent had raised 28 persons from the dead. But others claimed that St. Antonius' estimate fell far short of the actual number raised.
 
Upvote 0

justinangel

Newbie
Feb 19, 2011
1,301
197
Btwn heaven & earth
✟21,449.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Conservatives
All miracles are performed by Christ, not the person.


HEALING MIRACLES BY CATHOLICS (pg2)

CATHOLIC CHURCH REQUIREMENT FOR A MIRACLE TO BE DEFINED AS A MIRACLE:

1. Cure was instantaneous
2. Disease was incurable and did not return. No other medical, scientific explanation for cure.
3. Patient is examined by secular and religious doctors, psychologists and/or psychiatrists
4. Patient is monitored over a period of time
5. All medical, personal and eyewitness reports are documented
6. Cure attributed to prayer resulting in divine intervention


There are many more who raised the dead but there isn't enough space, so I'll go with my personal favourite.

St Vincent Ferrer (1350-1419) - Dominican priest:priest:


He moved in the limelight before both ordinary people and the great of the world. He once converted 10,000 Jews at one time by marching right into their synagogue and preaching to them; the Jews turned their synagogue into a Catholic Church.

So great a missionary was St. Vincent Ferrer that he can only be compared to the 12 Apostles. His accomplishments were incredible and rare in the whole history of the Church; his life story contains one amazing story after another, many of these are documented in the book “St Vincent Ferrer –The Angel of the Judgment” by Father Andrew Pradel, O.P.

When St. Vincent Ferrer was 46 years old, suffering from a grievous illness, Our Lord appeared to him, accompanied by St. Francis and St. Dominic; Our Lord said to Vincent, among other things, "Arise, then, and go to preach against vice; for this have I specially chosen thee. Exhort sinners to repentance, for My judgment is at hand." Our Lord told St. Vincent that his preaching before the coming of Antichrist would be for mankind a merciful occasion of repentance and conversion.

During this vision St. Vincent was immediately cured.

Two years later, in 1398, he was given permission to begin his apostolate of preaching. St. Vincent travelled all over western Europe preaching penance, attracting enormous crowds, and followed by thousands of disciples. He converted St. Bernardine of Siena and Blessed Margaret of Savoy. Vincent had the gift of languages; preaching in his Valencion idiom he was understood wherever he went; and in conversation he spoke French, Italian, German or English as fluently as his native tongue.

Some would consider it a conservative estimate that St. Vincent Ferrer converted 25,000 Jews and 8,000 Moors; his total number of conversions was around 200,000 souls- among them Moors, Jews, heretics, and apostate Catholics. At Toulouse he spoke on the Passion for six hours without a break before a crowd of 30,000 at the packed Place St. Etienne. When he cried out, "Arise you dead, and come to Judgment!" the whole crowd fell on their faces begging for mercy.

Learning about the many other wonders of St. Vincent makes it easier to accept the accounts of his death-to-life miracles. The Acta Sanctorum records 873 miracles performed by the saint, but there were actually many more. In 1412 Vincent himself told a crowd, "God has wrought in His mercy, through me a miserable sinner, three thousand miracles." After that Vincent lived seven more years, which was a period of even greater miracles.

The Bollandist hagiographers tell of 70 persons who were delivered from diabolical possession by St. Vincent Ferrer. He had such power over devils that it was often enough for him to touch a possessed person for him to be freed; at other times, a possessed person would be freed from the devil merely upon going to the same place as where Vincent was or even simply when Vincent's name was pronounced.

St. Antonius (Antoninus), Archbishop of Florence, another learned Dominican about 30 years old when Vincent died, stated that St. Vincent had raised 28 persons from the dead. But others claimed that St. Antonius' estimate fell far short of the actual number raised.


I admire your apostolic zeal, Loco, but let us stay on topic: the Immaculate Conception. We wouldn't want to derail this thread, would we?

Pax Christu,
J.A. :angel:
 
Upvote 0

xfisherman

Newbie
Jan 31, 2011
228
8
✟22,925.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The ability to perform miracles is a charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit. This gift was bestowed upon the apostles, but it is not transferrable between individuals as is the power of the Catholic clergy to "bind and loose" through Apostolic succession by the laying on of hands. The keys that were given to Peter and the Apostles by Jesus can be passed on from one bishop to the next who can trace his authority back to the Apostles through the sacrament of Ordination. Pope Pius was the Bishop of Rome, Timothy of Ephesus, by Apostolic lineage.

Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate...Attend to yourself and to your teaching...for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
1 Timothy 4, 14-16

And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.
2 Timothy 2, 2

"And indeed it was wholly fiitting that such wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent (cf. Gen 3:15). To her did the Father will to give his only-begotten Son...and to give this Son in such a way that he would be the one and the same common Son of God the Father and the Blessed Virgin Mary."
The Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius lX: Ineffabilis Deus

"There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; God existing in flesh; both of Mary and of God, Jesus Christ our Lord."
St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, To the Ephesians 7 [c.A.D. 110)

This saying is trustworthy, whoever aspires to the office of bishop (episcopoi) desires a noble task.
1 Timothy 3, 1

"Well?" :whistle:

Obviously there is no apostolic succession,otherwise the current Pope would be conducting mass healing like the Apostles after Pentecost..
 
Upvote 0

xfisherman

Newbie
Jan 31, 2011
228
8
✟22,925.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The maximum of truth would be all that the church established by Christ holds and teaches.

You could certainly approach the Bible in the same way -- what do I need to believe from the Bible in order to be saved? Or do I need to know every single thing in the Bible to be saved?

Did the Lord Jesus Christ then taught that we are to venerate or pray to Mary?
Did the Lord Jesus Christ taught that we are to pray to Saints?
Did the Lord Jesus Christ taught that his teachings is not enough,but to expand on his teachings by incorporating Rosary prayers?
Did the Lord Jesus Christ taught that we need to make idols of him and Saints and venerate them?
 
Upvote 0

justinangel

Newbie
Feb 19, 2011
1,301
197
Btwn heaven & earth
✟21,449.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Obviously there is no apostolic succession,otherwise the current Pope would be conducting mass healing like the Apostles after Pentecost..

"Are you serious, or just trying to pull my whiskers?"
:hahaha:

Ignatius, the Bishop of Antioch, was a disciple of the apostle John who had converted him in his youth, and he was ordained bishop by the apostle Peter. But he didn't perform mass healings. Neither did Timothy, who was ordained bishop by Paul at Ephesus. The charismatic gift of healing did not necessarily have to be passed on, but the gift of teaching was through "a prophetic word", that is the gift of prophesy. Pope Pius lX exercised this charismatic gift when he issued his encyclical.

"And thus preaching through cities and countries, they [the Apostles] appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe...Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the episcopate. For this reason...they appointed those ministers already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry."
St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, 42,44 [A.D. 98]

This letter of Clement was written about two years before the death of our Lord's beloved disciple John. The bishop was a legitimate purveyor of the word of God and the seven sacraments although he didn't perform mass healings. And he could trace his divine office back to Peter by the laying on of hands through Apostolic succession. Both historically and theologically the founder of the Pentecostal movement, Charles F. Parham, of Topeka, Kansas, 1901, obviously isn't to be counted among the "approved" men Clement refers to. Perhaps the guru fooled many gullible people into following him by performing mass healings, but our Lord has warned us: "False Christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect." (Mt 24:24). Jesus is speaking of the end times.


Pax :angel:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

cajunhillbilly

Regular Member
Jul 4, 2004
870
37
72
Dallas, TX
✟24,022.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Politics
US-Republican
HEALING MIRACLES BY CATHOLICS (pg2)

CATHOLIC CHURCH REQUIREMENT FOR A MIRACLE TO BE DEFINED AS A MIRACLE:

1. Cure was instantaneous
2. Disease was incurable and did not return. No other medical, scientific explanation for cure.
3. Patient is examined by secular and religious doctors, psychologists and/or psychiatrists
4. Patient is monitored over a period of time
5. All medical, personal and eyewitness reports are documented
6. Cure attributed to prayer resulting in divine intervention


If the so-called healers of today followed these kinds of criteria then we wouldn't have so many spurious "miracles".
 
Upvote 0

LOCO

Church Militant
Jun 29, 2011
1,143
68
✟24,189.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
HEALING MIRACLES BY CATHOLICS (pg2)

CATHOLIC CHURCH REQUIREMENT FOR A MIRACLE TO BE DEFINED AS A MIRACLE:

1. Cure was instantaneous
2. Disease was incurable and did not return. No other medical, scientific explanation for cure.
3. Patient is examined by secular and religious doctors, psychologists and/or psychiatrists
4. Patient is monitored over a period of time
5. All medical, personal and eyewitness reports are documented
6. Cure attributed to prayer resulting in divine intervention


If the so-called healers of today followed these kinds of criteria then we wouldn't have so many spurious "miracles".

I'm hearing you cajunhillbilly. All those so called 'miracles' we read about and see on TV, are usually undocumented, untested, unverified and not monitored over a period of time.

How do people fall for this kind of 'snake oil' exhibitionism?:)
 
Upvote 0

justinangel

Newbie
Feb 19, 2011
1,301
197
Btwn heaven & earth
✟21,449.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Your question is irrelevant to Catholic posters because in addition to Scripture they rely on Holy Tradition. The result is that a Catholic doctrine does not need to be found in scripture to be considered a doctrine.

Not necessarily explicitly found in Scripture - but at least implicitly (i.e., the Suffering Servant Songs of Isaiah and the Psalms of David pertaining to the person of Jesus). The Holy Spirit declares to the Church what is a revelation from God, not the written word. Scripture serves as an objective norm to go by in the affirmation of traditional teachings and beliefs: not the sole rule of faith. Thus sacred Scripture must be interpreted in light of sacred Tradition from whence it proceeds. When Pope Pius lX defined and declared the Immaculate Conception a dogma - an explicit revelation from God - of the Church, he cited passages from Scripture in support of this traditional doctrine which had developed over time under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

PAX
:angel:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

xfisherman

Newbie
Jan 31, 2011
228
8
✟22,925.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
All miracles are performed by Christ, not the person.


HEALING MIRACLES BY CATHOLICS (pg2)

CATHOLIC CHURCH REQUIREMENT FOR A MIRACLE TO BE DEFINED AS A MIRACLE:

1. Cure was instantaneous
2. Disease was incurable and did not return. No other medical, scientific explanation for cure.
3. Patient is examined by secular and religious doctors, psychologists and/or psychiatrists
4. Patient is monitored over a period of time
5. All medical, personal and eyewitness reports are documented
6. Cure attributed to prayer resulting in divine intervention


I'd like to see your Pope perform a miracle as proof of your apostolic claim.Apparantly he can't and have no apostolic power.In Book of Acts,one can see Peter and the Apostles performing many miracles as a testimony of their annointing as true Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.
Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟34,229.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd like to see your Pope perform a miracle as proof of your apostolic claim.Apparantly he can't and have no apostolic power.In Book of Acts,one can see Peter and the Apostles performing many miracles as a testimony of their annointing as true Apostles of Jesus Christ.

Are you able to assert with perfect certainty that no pope throughout history has ever performed a miracle? I don't see the point in demanding that Pope Benedict perform one for you. Besides, the entire question sounds like post-Reformational rhetorical taunting than an honest demand.
 
Upvote 0

xfisherman

Newbie
Jan 31, 2011
228
8
✟22,925.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Are you able to assert with perfect certainty that no pope throughout history has ever performed a miracle? I don't see the point in demanding that Pope Benedict perform one for you. Besides, the entire question sounds like post-Reformational rhetorical taunting than an honest demand.

The Roman Catholic Religion make a big claim that it has apostolic succession and it has the keys and can bind and loose on earth like Apostle Peter.When you dare to assert something,insn't it also likewise that you are able to carry out healing in Jesus name just like the Apostles.If you cannot then don't make such a loud claim, God find pride repulsive.
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟34,229.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Roman Catholic Religion make a big claim that it has apostolic succession and it has the keys and can bind and loose on earth like Apostle Peter.

Yes, I am sure that everyone knows this who is taking part in this discussion. By saying this you are not going to induce a "Eureka" moment whereby they will be taken aback and repudiate Roman Catholicism by it alone.

Tzaousios said:
Are you able to assert with perfect certainty that no pope throughout history has ever performed a miracle? I don't see the point in demanding that Pope Benedict perform one for you. Besides, the entire question sounds like post-Reformational rhetorical taunting than an honest demand.
xfisherman said:
When you dare to assert something,insn't it also likewise that you are able to carry out healing in Jesus name just like the Apostles.

Did you not read my original response to you above? It addressed precisely this issue, and questioned your demand that Pope Benedict alone must demonstrate miracles for you.

Tzaousios said:
If you cannot then don't make such a loud claim, God find pride repulsive.

Ah, so you are God's direct oracle for truth, and He has told you that He finds the Catholic Church's claim of apostolicity "repulsive"...
 
Upvote 0

xfisherman

Newbie
Jan 31, 2011
228
8
✟22,925.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Originally Posted by xfisherman
The Roman Catholic Religion make a big claim that it has apostolic succession and it has the keys and can bind and loose on earth like Apostle Peter.

Originally Posted by Tzaousios
Yes, I am sure that everyone knows this who is taking part in this discussion. By saying this you are not going to induce a "Eureka" moment whereby they will be taken aback and repudiate Roman Catholicism by it alone.

xfisherman
Tzaousios,since you're a Presbysterian and a protestant maybe thats your wish for the RCC.


Originally Posted by Tzaousios
Are you able to assert with perfect certainty that no pope throughout history has ever performed a miracle? I don't see the point in demanding that Pope Benedict perform one for you. Besides, the entire question sounds like post-Reformational rhetorical taunting than an honest demand.

xfisherman
I have not studied the history of all the Popes,but since you sound like an expert perhaps you can show me some examples. As for Pope Benedict, of course it would be nice to see him perform a miracle,don't you think so? It would be just like Saint Peter. Who knows maybe I will convert into the Roman Catholic Church.

Originally Posted by Tzaousios
Did you not read my original response to you above? It addressed precisely this issue, and questioned your demand that Pope Benedict alone must demonstrate miracles for you.

xfisherman
See my answer above.

Originally Posted by Tzaousios
Ah, so you are God's direct oracle for truth, and He has told you that He finds the Catholic Church's claim of apostolicity "repulsive"...

xfishman: Tzaousios since you are a protestant,you mean to tell me you find the Catholic Church "repulsive"...
__________________
 
Upvote 0

Tzaousios

Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
Dec 4, 2008
8,504
609
Comitatus in praesenti
Visit site
✟34,229.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
xfisherman, learn how to use the quote function. It is not that difficult.

Tzaousios said:
Yes, I am sure that everyone knows this who is taking part in this discussion. By saying this you are not going to induce a "Eureka" moment whereby they will be taken aback and repudiate Roman Catholicism by it alone.
Tzaousios,since you're a Presbysterian and a protestant maybe thats your wish for the RCC.

What is that supposed to mean? It is true that I tend to take a more Reformed view on things like Soteriology. Also, there are other things within high Presbyterianism that have a historical precedent than the spiritually and practically bankrupt Evangelical Protestantism. I do not by any means want Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox to repudiate their beliefs.

xfisherman said:
I have not studied the history of all the Popes,but since you sound like an expert perhaps you can show me some examples.

Well, perhaps you should pick up a basic church history book or a book on the popes written by a reputable scholar and not anti-Catholic armchair historians on the internet.

As for me, I am not an "expert" on the Papacy, not have I claimed to be. Nevertheless, I have done a lot of the intellectual and theological legwork to know when I see knee-jerk anti-Catholicism and honest arguments against some of its elements.

xfisherman said:
Tzaousios since you are a protestant,you mean to tell me you find the Catholic Church "repulsive"...

No. Does that surprise you? Do you mean to tell me that ALL Protestants should be virulent, knee-jerk anti-Catholic bigots who are ignorant of history?
 
Upvote 0